Dec. 3, 2025

Meet Your Host: Shari Heilala, the Owner and CEO of Sage Outdoor Advisory

Meet Your Host: Shari Heilala, the Owner and CEO of Sage Outdoor Advisory

Send us a text Connor welcomes new co‑host Shari Heilala to dig into the data, the grit, and the joy that power outdoor hospitality—from feasibility studies and appraisals to design choices that actually raise rates and length of stay. Shari brings a rare mix: she’s valued massive retail portfolios, led international corporate services, developed her own apartments, and for years has guided campgrounds, RV resorts, and glamping projects with lender‑ready analysis. We get practical on what se...

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Send us a text

Connor welcomes new co‑host Shari Heilala to dig into the data, the grit, and the joy that power outdoor hospitality—from feasibility studies and appraisals to design choices that actually raise rates and length of stay. Shari brings a rare mix: she’s valued massive retail portfolios, led international corporate services, developed her own apartments, and for years has guided campgrounds, RV resorts, and glamping projects with lender‑ready analysis.

We get practical on what separates a viable concept from a pretty pitch. Shari breaks down the difference between appraisals and feasibility studies, why most outdoor resort valuations are income‑driven, and how lenders read assumptions on occupancy, ADR, expenses, and debt coverage. We explore the shifts inside RV demand—why travel trailers outpace big rigs today, how tow vehicles and fuel costs shape modern rigs, and what is changing in RV resort site design. On the glamping side, we look at competitive edges that last: water access, dark skies, privacy, unique, or uniquely inspired architecture and design. 

Permitting and entitlements get real talk as well. We share how specialist architects streamline hearings, craft persuasive site plans, and help avoid costly missteps. Shari also opens up about the personal why: growing up on lakes, chasing dawn wakeboard sessions, and believing that well‑designed nature stays are durable because they restore people. 

If you’re planning a glamping site, expanding an RV resort, or just curious how the best outdoor properties are built, this conversation gives you a roadmap. 

Subscribe, share, and consider leaving us a review with the one question you want us to tackle next.

Clockwork Design
Outdoor hospitality's top architecture & design firm. To learn more email christian@clockwork-ad.com

Sage Outdoor Advisory
Sage is the leading outdoor consultancy in feasibility studies and appraisals in the USA.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

This episode is powered by Sage Outdoor Advisory the industry leaders in feasibility studies and appraisals.

We work hard to bring you the best insights from top experts in this space- FREE OF CHARGE, all we ask is that you consider leaving us a positive review so we can keep the momentum growing. To leave a review go to the podcast home page and scroll down past some of the first episodes - we appreciate you!

00:00 - Passing The Co‑Host Torch

00:34 - Expanding The Show’s Scope

00:58 - Sherry’s Background And Credibility

02:11 - Rooted All Over: Early Years

03:43 - Wisconsin To Finance And Real Estate

05:11 - Hands‑On Real Estate Education

07:25 - Why Development Is High Stakes

07:51 - Permitting, Entitlements, And Sponsors

09:05 - First Roles And Cold‑Calling For Opportunity

11:06 - Appraisal To Corporate Services To Family Pivot

12:58 - Founding Sage And Finding Campgrounds

15:12 - Appraisal vs Feasibility: What’s Different

17:21 - Outdoor Hospitality As A Calling

18:50 - Wakeboarding, Pyramids, And Lake Life

20:36 - Industry Shifts: RV And Glamping Trends

22:45 - Fuel, Tow Vehicles, And Design Impacts

24:08 - What Wins In Glamping Markets

25:04 - Favourite Stays And Unit Types

26:24 - Dream Property With Purpose

27:28 - Design Ideas: Porches, Canvas, Cabins

28:22 - Sage Today And The Road Ahead

29:27 - Community, Data, And Global Work

30:08 - Closing And How To Reach Us

WEBVTT

00:00:02.319 --> 00:00:07.360
Welcome back to another episode of the Outdoor Hospitality Podcast.

00:00:07.519 --> 00:00:15.599
I'm your host, Connor Schwab, joined by our future incoming or currently incoming, my additional co-host, Sherry Halala.

00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:16.239
Welcome, Sherry.

00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:17.280
Hello, Connor.

00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:18.079
Hello, everyone.

00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:27.120
So this is a continuation of what we did with my last episode where Nick interviewed me to hand over the reins of the podcast.

00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:33.840
And now I'm going to be doing that to Sherry, who's essentially taking Nick's place as my co-host on the podcast.

00:00:34.159 --> 00:00:43.039
Kind of a general structure that we'll have moving forward as we're still going to have a lot of the core glamping landscape resort unique stay content.

00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:52.240
And then we'll also be bringing in with Sherry's help some of her expertise in the RV resort, campground, hotel space.

00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:58.560
And so basically expanding a little bit more to the whole range of the outdoor hospitality space.

00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:06.799
And so we wanted to dive into Sherry's background and give you a chance to get to know her personally.

00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:24.239
And she's really been quite an influential person in the space and has a huge wealth of diverse information in, you know, all across real estate and feasibilities and appraisals, and more than I think people even realize.

00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:26.480
And so it'll be fun to dive into that.

00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:38.319
I've had the pleasure of being on many calls with Sherry with some you know big execs and high-powered developers on some huge projects and huge calls.

00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:56.159
And I'm always thankful when Sherry's there because I don't know if I've I don't think I've ever seen you be stumped, you know, on one of those big calls when someone mentions a you know a fancy finance term that I'm not familiar with, or something about, you know, technical debt questions or you know, business or equity structures or legal terms.

00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:58.159
And I feel like you just always have an answer.

00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:01.760
So it's always nice for me to to have you on those calls.

00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:05.840
So I look forward to kind of diving into how you got all that great experience.

00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:06.879
Thanks, Connor.

00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:10.240
Well, part of the secret is that I've been around a long time.

00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:12.240
All right.

00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:13.919
Well, let's let's start at the beginning.

00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:14.879
Where where'd you grow up?

00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:21.360
That is actually one of the hardest questions, to be honest, because I grew up in about six or seven different states.

00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:27.199
But I would say mostly I I claim to be from Wisconsin, a very small town.

00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:40.159
And I grew up just being kind of a fearless kid, which I know that's how you and I sort of bonded over being excited about doing new things and not being afraid to go after challenges and dreams.

00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:47.599
So I graduated from high school in Louisiana and then went back to Wisconsin to University of Wisconsin in Madison for college.

00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:50.159
I didn't know you lived in Louisiana.

00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:51.599
Were you in New Orleans or somewhere else?

00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:52.560
Baton Rouge.

00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:52.960
Wow.

00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:56.159
Got to party in New Orleans as a kid, which was good.

00:02:56.319 --> 00:02:57.759
But no, I I was born in St.

00:02:57.919 --> 00:02:58.319
Louis.

00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:01.759
I lived in Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, all over the place.

00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:03.120
Holy smokes.

00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:13.759
So did you ever, and this is just a total stereotype, but like, did you ever, you know, do any gator hunting or anything down in Louisiana or you know, going around in the swamp or anything like that?

00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:15.520
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:17.439
In full camo gear.

00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:20.560
I love snakes and gators in the water.

00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:22.960
Perfect.

00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:26.639
I'm so surprised there isn't any glamping down there in the Louisiana swamp.

00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:30.879
Well, swamp tours are a thing with those airboats, though, but I haven't done that yet.

00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:33.199
I've done that in Florida and it was very cool.

00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:36.400
So I'd be curious how it goes down in in Louisiana.

00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:41.759
I've actually never been to Louisiana, so I that's probably why I sound so uneducated about it.

00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:43.759
All right.

00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:46.000
So where'd you end up going for college?

00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:48.479
For college at the University of Wisconsin.

00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:52.240
You and I had a little nerdy engineering background in common.

00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:59.360
I started there to be an engineer and quickly realized my passion was elsewhere and switched to the business school.

00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:03.520
And I ended up getting a double major in finance and real estate.

00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:06.960
Gosh, more than 35 years ago now.

00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:12.719
So one great thing that I guess I chose right because I've been in that industry ever since.

00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:14.639
And it's UW Wisconsin, right?

00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:15.280
That's right.

00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:18.800
And that's they have kind of a top real estate program, right?

00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:19.439
They do.

00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:22.399
They've been ranked first or second since way back then.

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I'm super proud of that.

00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:25.199
Amazing.

00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:28.800
And what what kind of a a college student were you?

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Were you were you, you know, hunkering down in the library or were you out partying, or were you kind of a work hard playhard?

00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:36.240
Uh yes.

00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:38.399
I think you were a work hard playhard.

00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:39.120
Yeah.

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There's a lot of play hard and then hunker down in the library the night before and miraculously pull off an A or a B.

00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:48.000
But I I I didn't aim to be a 4.0 student.

00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:51.120
I I aimed to have a really well-rounded experience.

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Cause uh it was it was a great place to be.

00:04:54.000 --> 00:05:01.839
And yeah, we did we we did, you know, softball on ice, where you drink beer from a keg at every base.

00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:09.120
And I did a charity event up at a Ski Hill when I was there, you know, partied at the football games.

00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:11.279
But I really loved the real estate program there.

00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:13.839
And it was hands-on, which is unique.

00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:28.160
So we we were combined with the grad students, and so for instance, our real estate development class, we were told where the development site was, and it was owned by real estate investors.

00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:37.759
And we we actually went and did the research and pitched to the owners of the land what we thought they should develop and why, and did all the analysis for it.

00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:47.519
And that was one of the reasons why I fell in love with real estate and why I loved that program so much, because it was tangible and we got real world experience, which really benefited from.

00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:48.959
That's amazing.

00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:51.600
Uh that's kind of your capstone is to go out.

00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:55.920
And did you did the landowners have connection with the school or were they total strangers?

00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:57.040
That's a good question.

00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:04.959
I I'm not sure, but they got probably 12 different pitches from different teams of students, and they didn't pick ours.

00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:06.319
We were lowly undergrads.

00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:15.199
Some grad students did a little bit better job, and they got that's that's funny that they have the undergrads compete with the grad students in the same combination.

00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:17.759
That was good for us being an undergrad.

00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:25.759
I mean, we got the same quality education, and our appraisal class was an appraisal of a real building where we went out and did a full appraisal.

00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:29.360
And funny enough, I didn't try really hard in that class.

00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:33.279
I said, I'm never gonna be an appraiser, and lo and behold, I became an appraiser.

00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:43.439
What what do you think attracted you to real estate or or made you want to get into that field over you know, all the all the glamour of the engineering field?

00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:54.720
Well, I'm still a numbers geek at heart, and I wanted to use kind of that that side of my brain, but it was, yeah, something tangible.

00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:56.480
Real estate's kind of sexy.

00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:57.920
I wanted to be in commercial real estate.

00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:00.319
I thought I was gonna be a developer out of school.

00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:03.040
I didn't graduate at a time where there were jobs like that.

00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:08.800
So I fulfilled that dream of becoming a developer in 2019.

00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:12.879
I developed my own apartment building because that's something I always wanted to do.

00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:15.439
And it was it was a success, thankfully.

00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:16.480
And everything's different.

00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:23.600
Every property's different, every market's different, and there's a lot of problem solving and a lot of risk and a lot of reward.

00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:31.279
So just development, as I've learned over the past seven years, is uh it's a high-stakes game, not for the faint of heart.

00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:33.360
You know, big risks, big rewards.

00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:38.240
Not for the faint of heart is exactly the what came into my mind going through it.

00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:50.160
And I thought, you know, when developers make good money off of their ventures, it's not without a lot of hard work, a lot of diligence, and a lot of sleepless nights.

00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:50.800
Yeah.

00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:54.000
Connor, do you want to talk about glamping permits for a second?

00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:56.240
Yeah, it's it's hugely important.

00:07:56.399 --> 00:08:03.680
The two biggest roadblocks to getting you know glamping projects built is the funding and the entitlements and the permitting.

00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:05.759
So it's it's a really big deal.

00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:19.519
Yeah, and it can be a very challenging and you know, sometimes quite intimidating process, not just putting all the materials together, but presenting it to the county, often going through the public hearing process, which can be really scary and sometimes quite nasty.

00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:24.079
And that's why it does help to have people who are used to doing this on your side.

00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:29.439
And that's why we're delighted to announce that today's sponsors are Clockwork Architecture and Design.

00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:31.920
They're an architecture firm based in Kansas City.

00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:38.799
They have a specialist outdoor hospitality division that have done tons of work in the glamping and RV resort space.

00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:44.559
They're experts at designing and permitting glamping resorts or whatever kind of outdoor hospitality project it is.

00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:56.799
They'll come to your property, walk the land with you, work at work through a concept with you, design the whole layout of the site, and then gather all the materials for the county, deal with the county, deal with the public hearings if you'd like them to.

00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:00.559
Uh, and they're just you know all-round fantastic partners to have on your side.

00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:05.279
And Connor, I know you and Sage have had uh some pretty good experiences with clockwork as well.

00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:11.440
Yeah, we've we've been working with clockwork literally the entire time that I've been at the company, so for four years.

00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:14.480
And so we've done dozens and dozens of projects with them.

00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:20.080
And love the chance to get to work with them because you know they are the best and most experienced in the industry.

00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:24.960
They they really know outdoor hospitality and they've designed some world-class sites.

00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:27.360
It's just, yeah, they're they're very talented.

00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:29.440
You'd be in good hands to work with them.

00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:34.320
Yeah, and I can't vouch highly enough for Christian Arnold at Clockwork, the owner.

00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:40.559
He's a you know fantastic guy who cares about what he does, looks after his clients, very reliable communication-wise as well.

00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:43.200
And yeah, we're we're super excited to partner with them on this.

00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:52.480
So if you are looking for site designs, you know, entitlement help, whatever it may be in that field, then do con contact Clockwork Architecture and Design.

00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:58.159
And the way you can do that is by emailing Christian at clockwork-ad.com.

00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:00.159
All the details will be in the description as well.

00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:01.440
So go check that out if you want.

00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:03.360
So, yeah, thank you, Clockwork.

00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:04.720
We couldn't recommend them highly enough.

00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:05.519
Go check them out.

00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:08.080
So, what was your first job out of college?

00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:09.519
Or what did you do after you graduated?

00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:12.000
I was a property manager in Chicago.

00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:16.000
I managed office building and some retail shopping centers.

00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:19.759
So that was that didn't last a really long time.

00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:27.919
I was working for a smaller property owner that didn't really have the funds to invest in like all the upgrades that really would have been needed.

00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:30.000
So I ended up becoming a little bit of a babysitter.

00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:33.200
And that's when I moved on into appraisal.

00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:54.399
I did have an internship my last summer of college, and the the story's kind of funny, and I've told my kids this story because of how much things have changed, but I knew I needed the experience before I graduated, you know, and couldn't really find it was 1989, so I there weren't a lot of the market was was down then.

00:10:54.559 --> 00:11:11.279
There weren't a lot of opportunities, so I got the yellow pages out, and I opened the yellow pages to the real estate section, and I started with the first one and just dialed for a job and said who I was, that I was a student and that I would work for free.

00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:12.879
Will you give me a job?

00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:16.559
And I got a job in the C section.

00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:19.440
Looking at the A's and B's.

00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:25.120
Uh I worked for uh an entrepreneur, Chicago neighborhood investors.

00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:33.840
And then he so I helped him with some asset management stuff, and then he hooked me up with a friend of his who developed golf courses, and I did some work for him as well.

00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:35.679
Wow, developing the golf course.

00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:46.559
I love that dialing for the yellow pages because that's probably holds true today as the most surefire way to go get a job.

00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:48.240
And no one does it.

00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:50.240
That's what makes it so good.

00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:56.879
In the in the today's day and age of LinkedIn and all these job boards where people just, you know, to like one click apply.

00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:03.600
I I try to give a lot of free advice to friends and and colleagues and people I'm mentoring about when they're searching for a job.

00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:10.480
And the reality is most job applications will get 50, 100, 200, 500 resume applicants to them.

00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:19.600
And for the person looking through them, which oftentimes is me, as I've done dozens and dozens of times, you barely get any time to look at each resume.

00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:26.399
And it's very easy to get overlooked, especially if your resume doesn't jump out immediately with the skills needed for the job.

00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:34.960
And but so few people call and say, Hey, can I speak with the manager of this job or can I I'll work for free?

00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:35.759
I'm interested.

00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:37.039
How can I help you?

00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:38.240
So I I love that.

00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:40.320
I did get paid$8 an hour.

00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:41.360
Heck yeah.

00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:41.919
Heck yeah.

00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:43.440
That was probably pretty good.

00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:44.720
It wasn't bad.

00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:45.440
Yeah.

00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:50.480
And all right, so then you did the property management, that was short, you didn't love it.

00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:57.039
How did you how did you find this appraisal route, despite in college you being like, I'm never gonna be an appraiser?

00:12:57.519 --> 00:12:58.159
Yeah.

00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:06.639
Well, you know Kristen Anderson Garwood, who is our our other VP of outdoor hospitality.

00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:10.639
She and I met in real estate class in Wisconsin.

00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:16.799
And at the time, she took an appraisal job with a big national appraisal company.

00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:25.679
And they said to her, Man, I could use one more bright, you know, real estate student coming out of college just like you.

00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:29.039
And Kristen said, I know somebody.

00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:30.480
And that was me.

00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:32.480
So we worked together at that time.

00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:37.440
She just came back and joined us at Sage Outdoor Advisory, you know, 30, whatever years later from that.

00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:40.159
But um, we did a lot of regional malls.

00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:49.440
I appraised the largest regional mall in the country at the time, which I personally think is kind of hilarious that you know a 22-year-old was doing that.

00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:52.720
But uh but it's a notch on my belt.

00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:53.840
So it was fun.

00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:56.320
And yeah, I did that for a while.

00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:57.360
Well, that's interesting.

00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:12.879
I'm familiar with the appraisal side of your business because you every year appraise what is it like a 50, 50 property portfolio for one of the large one of the largest mall owners or retail owners in the country, and you guys do that every year?

00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:15.279
Yeah, more like 130 properties now.

00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:22.720
It started with 50 and they they keep acquiring and they've expanded into office and multifamily and similar things.

00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:34.879
So that has been a huge growth driver on our appraisal side of the business, which is now run by a very, very capable woman with her MAI who's worked for me for a long time.

00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:40.159
So I get to focus 99% of my time on the outdoor, uh outdoor industry.

00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:47.519
From starting at 22 with the the largest mall in America to landing, you know, one of the biggest mall clients in the country.

00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:50.320
We should we should have a whole podcast on malls.

00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:50.799
Right.

00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:51.759
We could.

00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:56.480
There that's actually a really interesting topic, but I guess we'll stay focused, huh?

00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:56.960
Yeah.

00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:02.480
So so how did that, what happened in that appraisal job or career, how long was it?

00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:03.360
What'd you do?

00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:06.879
You know, like I said, I I thought I wanted to do more.

00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:18.320
And I took a position at Cushman and Wakefield shortly after that that initial job and was doing a lot of affordable apartments and just wasn't really feeling super inspired at the time.

00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:30.240
And I got offered a job in doing corporate services, servicing Cushman and Wakefield's large corporate clients and kind of bringing all of the company's services to those clients and negotiating some small deals.

00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:32.960
And that ended up taking me to California.

00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:43.200
And I ended up leading the team for the first corporate services client where we brought international services to the client.

00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:47.679
And it was before Cushman and Wakefield owned all of their offices internationally.

00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:49.039
They were all partnerships.

00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:52.320
So I had conference calls from 5 a.m.

00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:53.279
to 8 p.m.

00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:53.759
at night.

00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:57.679
We were doing deals in every continent, almost every continent.

00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:01.039
So that was super challenging.

00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:08.559
And I was getting gray hairs at 28 at the time, which thankfully went away for a couple of decades after.

00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:19.279
But it was a huge personal, personal growth time for me learning to lead a team and deliver services in a new platform internationally.

00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:20.799
So that was pretty cool.

00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:24.240
And to answer your next question, why did I leave that?

00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:28.480
Because you know I got back into appraisal and consulting.

00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:31.120
And really it was because I started a family.

00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:36.720
And the demands of that job were kind of tearing me apart with the travel and the hours.

00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:43.679
So I moved back to Chicago and went back into the appraisal business, just trying to have a little bit of work-life balance.

00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:54.000
And I worked for a small appraisal company at the time and part-time initially, but my my ambition got the best of me that quickly rolled back into full-time.

00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:58.159
But that's where I appraised my first campground over 20 years ago.

00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.360
And really, really fell in love with that.

00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:04.640
I I get bored easily and I'm always looking for a new challenge.

00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:10.640
And I had actually been a hotel expert in the valuation group at Cushman and Wakefield way back when.

00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:14.000
And it kind of touched on a lot of similar concepts.

00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:18.880
So I welcomed any of that work that came in my way after that.

00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:26.720
And eventually I realized, you know, I got my MAI and I was really ready to try to do things on my own.

00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:32.319
I really wasn't at the time looking to build any kind of major operation.

00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:40.240
I just kind of wanted work-life balance and kind of pilot my own plane, so to speak.

00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:44.880
A lot of those clients from the campground and RV resort industry found me.

00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:50.000
And that is how it all started and how Sage Outdoor Advisory was born.

00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:54.240
And we did our first glamping project in 2018.

00:17:54.400 --> 00:18:02.319
And as you know, Connor, and the ads for our podcast say, you know, we've done well over 300 outdoor hospitality projects since then.

00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:12.240
Our revenues have grown tremendously, a lot of it propelled by when you came on board and started dreaming big with me, which I love to do.

00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:17.599
And we kind of grabbed the bull by the horns, and it's been a wild, wild ride since then.

00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:19.680
What a journey.

00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:31.200
And so so going out on your own and and starting your own business, you know, it started more, it started more on the appraisal side, general real estate.

00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:34.799
And and then didn't you also go back to school at one point?

00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:50.960
Yeah, I was in Northwestern's executive MBA program as well, which, man, anybody who I know you went to a really unique MBA program, which was great for you, but I gotta say, when you're an undergrad, you're just kind of taking it all in, trying to get the grades, you want to get a good job.

00:18:51.119 --> 00:19:00.240
But going back into an MBA program after working in the real world is super, super rewarding and insightful.

00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:03.200
And uh, I really, really enjoyed that as well.

00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:04.000
Yeah.

00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:20.400
So UW Madison top real estate and finance degree, followed by an MAI, which is very the highest level in the appraisal world, then going to an MBA program at Northwestern, then you're like, all right, I think I want to start my own company.

00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:25.279
And it started off with general appraiser and on the commercial side.

00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:30.960
And then I guess as you how did you start doing feasibility studies?

00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:35.119
Maybe you could share with folks like what the difference is between those two things.

00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:36.480
And yeah.

00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:38.240
Yeah, great question.

00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:50.079
So I had a client, and I but I'd love to name him and honor him, Rich Stockwell, with RV Park Consulting, because he was one of my biggest clients when I started doing campground appraisals.

00:19:50.319 --> 00:20:03.759
And he he would refer me to people doing ground up development because he felt that the appraisals we did were so in-depth that they were serving the purpose of a feasibility study, really.

00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:36.480
And the main difference was with an appraisal, you are determining market, you're still doing evaluating the market, coming up with rates and occupancy, doing a full income and expense pro forma, but instead of calculating rates of return or your debt service debt yeah, debt coverage ratios, you're determining market value and the market value of what it is currently, if it's vacant land, if it's entitled, as well as what it would be when it's complete and when it's stabilized.

00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:40.880
And so it's really just those final steps that are different.

00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:49.359
And in appraisal, you also will support that with sales approach and comparable sales, which is very difficult in the outdoor hospitality world.

00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:54.799
So it's really all income-based, is what you're you're deriving your values on.

00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:58.720
So the nuts and bolts are extremely similar.

00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:15.279
And Rich's team was doing their feasibility studies initially, and his team was unable to do them, and he respected my work and said, Would you like to do the feasibility studies that we've been doing for our clients?

00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:16.640
I think you'd be great at them.

00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:19.359
And I I, of course, said absolutely.

00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:22.960
And that continued to grow from there.

00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:45.039
And a lot of because of my appraisal background and working with a lot of clients that were banks, we really have a niche in providing reports and the data necessary to support investment and financing decisions and understanding what they want to see and what makes a good, well-supported and well-researched report.

00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:52.000
So along the way, I've learned a ton on the consulting side and where to give advice.

00:21:52.079 --> 00:22:03.759
And it's gone beyond just doing the numbers and being able to recommend how many units and a variety and what kind of amenities and all those kinds of extra fun things.

00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:04.960
Hello, listeners.

00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:08.160
This is Sherry Halala, founder of Sage Outdoor Advisory.

00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:11.599
If you're launching an outdoor hospitality project like Clamping, we can help.

00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:13.920
We offer feasibility studies and appraisals.

00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:22.160
What that means is we look at your specific market and proposed business offering and complete an in-depth analysis to make sure that your planned business will be profitable.

00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:29.920
Getting a second opinion on your proposal and forecasted financials is critical to understand before you spend years of your time and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:34.960
This is particularly important if you are looking to raise money for your project from a bank or private investors.

00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:40.640
They are going to want to see this type of deep dive analysis from an independent third-party specialist in the industry.

00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:49.279
We at Sage have completed well over 250 feasibility studies and appraisals in outdoor hospitality in North America in the last four years.

00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:53.200
So we understand what it takes to bring a project from concept to reality.

00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:59.920
If this sounds like it could be helpful to you, you can go to our website, SageOutdoorAdvisory.com, and schedule a call with our team.

00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:03.599
While you're there, check out our proprietary glamping database map too.

00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:04.079
Thanks.

00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:04.960
Now back to the show.

00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:26.480
It is interesting because you seem to be familiar and have at least some experience in almost every aspect of a real estate transaction, kind of from every angle, you know, whether whether it be the appraisal side or the developer side or a corporate services side, international domestic, tons of different asset classes.

00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:32.000
You've done a lot of your own real estate transactions and developments as well as well as invested in things.

00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:46.960
And so I think that brings a really rich perspective that most appraisers wouldn't be able to do, having, you know, if they just specialize and only do that, which is super valuable and certainly comes through when we're speaking with clients.

00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:51.440
And how was it that you decided, like what attracted you to want to?

00:23:51.519 --> 00:23:58.319
Because it started as Sage Commercial Advisory, which is predominantly appraisals for all types of commercial real estate.

00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:05.839
And then what was it that attracted you to the outdoor space and want to start Sage outdoor advisory that was focused on the outdoor hospitality space?

00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:08.160
My love of the outdoors, really.

00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:10.400
I mentioned I grew up in Wisconsin.

00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:14.000
My favorite childhood memory is camping and boating.

00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:26.480
We camped in a state park every summer for a couple weeks and with a group of families, and we'd pull up our ski boat right up to our campsite on the beach and be around the campfire at night.

00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:39.839
And every other weekend that we weren't camping, we'd be out on the boat, you know, playing music from the boat, doing crazy things, you know, behind the boat with skiing and knee boarding and barefooting even.

00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:42.000
And just I love it.

00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:57.759
And with today's overly connected world and me being probably too ambitious all the time and putting too much on my plate, I've realized how badly I need the outdoors for my own mental well-being, physical well-being.

00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:02.079
I moved up onto a lake out of the city in the last few years.

00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:07.839
And it just combines the what I love in my personal life with my professional life.

00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:16.400
It's really feels like a second career, even though I've stayed within this, you know, one kind of commercial real estate area.

00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:20.640
But it's it's a second career that is truly a labor of love now.

00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:27.039
And knowing that I'm I'm not just supporting developers who want to build anything that makes money.

00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:31.279
I'm supporting people's dreams and people's goals to connect people to nature.

00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:33.519
And to me, that that feels good.

00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:36.480
So well said, after my own heart.

00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:50.640
And I know you and I related strongly on that, which was a big reason for us, probably even more from a personal level than a professional level, like wanting this to be called the Outdoor Hospitality Podcast, because I know for me that was always very obvious, and I I think for you as well.

00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:56.079
And and I think this summer from your lake house, you know, you've still been having your weekly board meetings.

00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:00.079
I think wakeboarding behind the boats has still been a regular thing for you this summer.

00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:01.440
Is that correct?

00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:15.119
Yeah, after sunrise, if the water's good, one of my good friends who's on our board of directors, um, yeah, we we do that while one of us drives the boat and the other one tries to do crazy, crazy stuff behind the boat.

00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:25.839
So I'm a big wakeboarder, used to be a show waterskier, and I c I call myself an aging action adventure junkie.

00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:27.200
What kind of show water?

00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:30.160
I love I you know I love slalom skiing.

00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:32.400
So what kind of show water skiing were you doing?

00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:42.160
Because that's I similar to the Tommy Bartlett show, although we were I was not on the Tommy Bartlett team, I did water show water skiing.

00:26:42.240 --> 00:27:03.279
So we would do the ballet lines where you'd have you know 12 women in a row on one slalom ski, and we would hold the rope with our toe and you know do the do the kind of arm movements and flags, and then we built human water ski pyramids, and yeah, that's amazing.

00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:09.440
Yeah, it was I just wanted to be behind a boat and I didn't have one at the time, so that's what I did.

00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:14.880
And I've been flirting with getting back into it, but I think I need like a seniors show team or something.

00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:20.799
That is so badass and very difficult, very difficult to pull pull off those moves.

00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:22.559
I can't even imagine how you do a pyramid.

00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:24.240
Was it a three, two, one pyramid?

00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:26.240
Literally on shoulders, yeah.

00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:27.039
Yeah, yeah.

00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:28.319
I was in the middle.

00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:29.759
So crazy.

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:38.640
You all start off on two skis and then you drop them and basically climb up people and get on their shoulders and then hold the rope and then let people climb on you.

00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:39.599
Jeez.

00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:41.920
That is hilarious.

00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:43.519
Yeah, I gotta see some photos of that.

00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:45.200
They're very fuzzy because they're old.

00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:53.119
You're you're in the process of of getting a second board meeting certification because I know you've tried some tried some kite boarding out recently as well, I believe.

00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:55.839
Yeah, inspired by inspired by you, Connor.

00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:04.640
Yeah, that's that's that's on the short-term goal list, and I just see those people flying through the air, and I got I gotta do it.

00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:05.440
I gotta do it.

00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:19.519
So what maybe would be interesting is you know, you you appraised your first RV park campground 20 years ago, started Sage Commercial Advisory around 10 years ago, and then Sage Outdoor Advisory around five?

00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:27.279
Fifteen years ago for Sage Commercial and seven, I don't know, seven or more for Sage.

00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:28.079
Okay.

00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:33.359
So what what how have you seen the outdoor hospitality industry change?

00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:40.079
You know, like what was it like 2015, you know, seven years ago versus today?

00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:42.319
Yeah, that's a great question.

00:28:42.480 --> 00:29:11.279
I think, you know, I mean, we we know that glamping really came on the scene recently in the last seven or eight years in the US, outside of under Canvas and a few others, but um on the RV side, that's changed a lot because the focus 10 plus years ago was just on providing uh filling in that that hole in the market to accommodate big rig Class A RVs.

00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:30.240
That was the growing segment, that was the name of the game to be competitive, and because most campgrounds and RV parks at that time, 20 years ago, were developed when class A huge RVs with slide-outs didn't exist.

00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:32.240
So that was the name of the game.

00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:42.000
And you wanted 90-foot long sites by 40 feet, you wanted to make sure the turning radius was there for the big vehicles.

00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:50.079
And now it's a little more nuanced because that's not the fastest growing RV segment anymore.

00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:59.759
There's, you know, we had a we had a boom with camper vans, which if anyone's listened to your Sandy Vans episode also knows that that that's pulled back a little just.

00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:01.920
Despite Sandy Band's huge success.

00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:06.480
And travel trailers have emerged as the higher growth segment.

00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:14.720
So I think that the driving demand factor for design has changed a little bit.

00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:18.480
It's not so clear that you just make a park for big rigs.

00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:20.880
It really depends on who your target market is.

00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:29.440
And I think that it's a little more complex in recommended mix of sites and what type of vehicles are coming in and out.

00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:34.880
And I do think that the amenities have evolved.

00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:46.400
And you're starting to see more of a focus on wellness in the RV resort space that didn't really go beyond pickleball courts, which by the way, we're all the rage 20 years ago in RV resorts.

00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:48.799
So they're all the rage everywhere now.

00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:55.440
But that's the first place I ever heard about pickleball was appraising uh new, new proposed RV parks.

00:30:55.519 --> 00:31:19.759
But um and obviously the glamping industry has changed dramatically in the last five to seven years, just from not even people not even knowing what it is to being a highly competitive landscape where the big hotel brands have recognized the longevity of outdoor experience driving people's travel desires.

00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:26.799
So that's something that I think is gonna continue to evolve rapidly in in the glamping world.

00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:29.839
So I think those are kind of the biggest changes I've seen.

00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:31.359
Yeah.

00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:41.119
And if you had to if you had to guess maybe about where the direction it's headed, or you know, what what do you think happens next?

00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:42.720
What what's your guess there?

00:31:43.039 --> 00:32:03.039
I think I think domestic travel in the US is gonna continue to be strong and that there's gonna be an underlying resilience in outdoor hospitality just because of people's needs and desires to be in nature and have outdoor, outdoor experiences and unique experiences.

00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:13.920
But I think that the competitive landscape and the merging of the different types of outdoor hospitality with traditional hospitality, those lines are gonna continue to get blurred.

00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:17.599
But I do think it's they're both here to stay.

00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:36.000
And on the RV side, it'll depend on emerging energy technologies, but I think the cost of travel and the cost of gas is gonna continue to drive preferences and RV types in how RV resorts are designed in the future.

00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:40.160
Yeah, I'm so curious about what's gonna happen in the RV space.

00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:42.319
It's such a fascinating niche.

00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:42.960
Yeah.

00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:53.119
And I thought, I would have thought that the class B segment, which was basically the smaller vans, sprinter vans, was gonna just be the future.

00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:53.519
Yeah.

00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:56.559
And like you said, it's kind of pulled back a little bit.

00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:04.400
It's hard to break out exactly, you know, Class B is kind of a big segment, how you know, sprinters and things are are doing.

00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:18.960
I mean, I thought that that would be the future in the sense that it applies, it appeals highly to the new generation in terms of size and you know, fuel economy and simplicity and minimalism and being able to get to hard-to-reach places.

00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:26.799
And then it was just surprising to see that that kind of pulled back, and then towable trailers is now the one that's had the most growth.

00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:30.480
And I think I think fifth wheels do pretty well still as well.

00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:33.359
And class A is like the buses are down, right?

00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:34.640
I think that's shrinking.

00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:35.519
Yeah.

00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:36.160
Yeah.

00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:41.839
Part of it is the evolution of the trucks, I my opinion, is the evolution of the trucks that can pull the trailers.

00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:52.880
You know, you can have Rivian, and you know, we ended up buying, even though it was diesel, a Duramax to pull our trailer and it was getting 40 miles to the gallon on the highway, and then it could still be our vehicle at home.

00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:56.880
So it just gives you a little more flexibility and room.

00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:04.319
And, you know, if you have pets and want a bigger bed and have a family to travel with, it does provide more flexibility.

00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:10.400
But I've been really, really intrigued about Class B camper van recently.

00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:13.679
So if I stay tuned on that, I might be talking to you.

00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:17.199
Oh man, I love I'll I'll talk to you.

00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:18.400
I've done all three.

00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:20.719
I've had the chance to do all three a little bit.

00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.760
And I'm just a huge believer in the class B, but you're right.

00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:27.599
I mean, the truck industry in the US, it's kind of crazy.

00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:33.360
Like the trucks just keep getting bigger, and truck kill truck culture just keeps getting stronger.

00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:48.239
People love their trucks, and and it is, you know, the benefits of being able to pull a trailer, leave it at the campsite, and then just go drive around your truck, your daily driver, is very appealing.

00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:50.400
And you're not worried about two engines.

00:34:50.480 --> 00:35:05.360
I know when I had my class A bus, it was just the maintenance, you know, you have to drive it, you know, you especially if you're like you're in a freezing location, it's kind of a pain, and you don't want it to just sit there unused for a year or two and the battery dies.

00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:09.199
And but when you're pulling a trailer, you don't have to worry about engine maintenance.

00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:15.199
It's just you just have your daily driver to worry about what you're already doing, and you can just pick it up and tow it wherever you need.

00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:17.280
So that's kind of fascinating.

00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:28.800
And and how about in maybe the the glamping space where what's what's the best place to be and the worst place to be if you're you know in the market?

00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:32.480
Best place to be is on the water, of course.

00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:34.960
That's definitely true.

00:35:35.360 --> 00:35:41.679
Yeah, there's more than that, but you know, if you can have some kind of water feature in be near really popular national park, you're golden.

00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:51.280
But um, you know, the worst place to be is somewhere on a small site that's noisy and and crowded and with a lot of competition.

00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:56.159
So, you know, those those secluded stays are key in my opinion.

00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:06.320
And as you know, having a unique story, having a unique piece of land, and having a unique experience is the way to win long term.

00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:08.639
Yeah, I love it.

00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:09.840
I totally agree.

00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:21.679
What do you think is your do you have a favorite property that you've gotten to stay at in terms of yeah, just like maybe the property itself is the most the most stunning?

00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:27.440
And then do you have maybe a favorite unit type or favorite favorite unit at a property that you've been to?

00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:31.199
Well, Darren Connor, because I think we have the same favorite properties.

00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:32.079
Really?

00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:34.000
Is it is it open sky?

00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:36.000
Yeah, it's it's so good.

00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:47.760
Yeah, open sky, sleeping in in this their stargazing unit with the glass open to the sky and the walls and the red rocks.

00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:49.440
It's just phenomenal.

00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:51.920
Did you get to sleep in the stargazer there?

00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:52.800
Yeah.

00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:54.159
Yeah.

00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:55.760
I didn't get to stay.

00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:59.440
I haven't been able to stay in any big those units.

00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:00.960
I got lucky.

00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:03.280
You got to stay in there when you appraised it, right?

00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:04.239
I did, yeah.

00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:10.000
You know, heated floors in the bathroom and copper cloth foot tub and your outdoor shower.

00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:11.920
Like it just, it was magical.

00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:29.199
So, and I like you said, in you know, of course I listened to our podcast, so I know you said this recently, you know, the the tents are really hard to beat from a guest experience, especially when it's such a high quality tent, like they offer.

00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:34.400
And, you know, they've the dark skies, it's just it's unbeatable.

00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:41.280
And I know there's a lot of other properties like that out there, but that one was one of my first experiences like that.

00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:44.400
It's really, really stayed with me.

00:37:45.679 --> 00:38:00.880
The most unique, my favorite, my favorite unit type has to still be the tree house, the ones that are truly up in the trees with those rope bridges that extend from branch to branch.

00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:03.920
You know, you go on the bridge to get to the hot tub.

00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:08.000
And the ones that are just really creatively made, I think they're so inspiring.

00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:13.119
I just from our work, I just know that they're very expensive and difficult to execute.

00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:20.800
So but from an experience and unique offering standpoint, that's really my favorite unit type.

00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:27.840
And you recently appraised or did a feasibility study or both for Arbor Camp up in Acadia, right?

00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:29.119
I did.

00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:30.480
Yeah, we did both of those.

00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:33.360
And I really love that area up in Maine.

00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:37.599
And their treehouses are a little more like cabin, elevated cabins.

00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:52.400
And I didn't get to see the 100% finished project, but I really they have a really beautiful piece of land along large creek, I guess you could call it a small river, and they've got boulders all over the site with a variety of terrain.

00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:56.960
So that's definitely, definitely up there as one of my favorites.

00:38:57.280 --> 00:38:59.199
I look forward to seeing that when it's finished.

00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.119
It sounds, it sounds really nice.

00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:02.639
That's that's a cool one.

00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:03.519
Definitely.

00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:11.199
And if you are gonna build your own dream property, you know, where is it?

00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:12.400
What does it look like?

00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:14.719
What kind of units, what kind of amenities?

00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:24.639
And then maybe let's say it's let's just say maybe not dream property, but let's say like a realistic, you know, you have a couple million dollars, you're gonna get a loan on it as well.

00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:30.719
You want to build like a realistic, a realistic dream property that ideally has some returns.

00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:32.000
Yeah, yeah.

00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:37.840
That's funny because as soon as you said that, I'm like, dream property just dreaming or using everything we know?

00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:40.480
Dream property that has no returns.

00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:41.119
Right.

00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:46.639
Yeah, so I can I can actually combine a little bit of both both of those dreams.

00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:49.519
And I've like I've been thinking about it a lot.

00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:53.280
I I have a really huge love of animals.

00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:58.800
My and my son is in the industry of caring for animals at a vet clinic.

00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:08.960
And I'm not the only one with this idea, but I would love to combine an animal sanctuary with clamping in a respectful way to support the animals.

00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:12.559
That would be kind of my retirement or semi-retirement dream.

00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:26.159
I you know that I almost bought a unique cabin property and I realized that I would want to be a lot more involved than I than than I planned initially when wanting to be a primary investor and wanting I did back out.

00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:48.880
But when I have the time in life, I would love a waterfront glamping animal sanctuary that allows that allows the guests to help support caring for and taking care of the animals in a in a way that's healthy for the animals and probably be out west somewhere, maybe Montana.

00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:55.280
I would want to make sure that we're still near somewhere with winter demand, urine demand is key.

00:40:55.679 --> 00:41:01.280
So yeah, I think that's that's kind of when you say animal sanctuary, what kind of animals come to mind?

00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:04.239
You're like, oh, I want these animals at my animal sanctuary.

00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:19.599
Uh we could have some rescued ponies and some alpacas, and of course, we need baby goats and the uh highland cows, you know, anybody, anything cute that needs help.

00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:26.000
I got to go to an animal sanctuary up in Alaska in the spring.

00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:30.880
Yeah, up in the spring, and it was super, it was very cool.

00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:31.679
I loved it.

00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:35.760
They had all sorts of crazy stuff, and it was it was very cool.

00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:40.480
And I was imagining if there was clamping there, would be a pretty cool experience as well.

00:41:41.119 --> 00:41:44.079
And yeah, I I like I like your concept.

00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:45.199
That would be unique.

00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:54.880
I know a couple of our clients have incorporated Highland cows and I think donkeys that I believe that property is doing doing pretty well in South Carolina.

00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:59.760
And I'm not opposed to not so helping not so cute animals.

00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:03.039
Let's just is there gonna be a sauna at your property, Sherry?

00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:04.159
Come on, shoot me straight.

00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:05.360
Hell yeah.

00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:06.239
Okay, good.

00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:10.079
Cold plunge, all kinds, you know.

00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:13.039
Ideally, we're cold plunging in a creek, you know.

00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:15.760
What unit types are you using?

00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:23.039
I think I would do some kind of authentic unique cabin that's that's in line with the culture of the area.

00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:25.039
So it'd be stick built, like unique.

00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:26.559
Yeah, stick built.

00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:45.840
If we can do it affordably, I've always thought that it'd be cool to do a combination of canvas and a rustic cabin look if you're out west, where maybe you can take the canvas part down in the winter, but they kind of be like your your outdoor front area.

00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:47.920
Interesting that you live in.

00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:53.599
And I also think one thing that nobody's doing with their glamping structures is screened in porches.

00:42:53.760 --> 00:43:02.400
I know they're not the prettiest thing, but man, are they awesome for kind of being indoor outdoors and not being bothered by by bugs and stuff.

00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:06.000
And they could be super comfortable and you could even sleep in them.

00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:07.280
So that's another idea.

00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:32.320
Yeah, my friends in Finland have this kind of outdoor porch that's it's it's a lot of glass walls, but it's and I think it has that transparent roof material, so it's like partially insulated and partially closed in, and they have, I think, a gas fireplace in there or something, but it's you know, it's it's not quite indoors, but it's not like an open porch, and it's it's it's amazing.

00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:42.800
All this light gets in and it's awesome views, it's just like an amazing place to hang out when you know in the dead of winter when it's you know you can't really hang outside, but it's kind of the closest thing.

00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:45.360
Yeah, that sounds fantastic.

00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:47.360
Yeah, so I'm a big fan.

00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:52.480
With Sage Outdoor Advisory, what does the future hold?

00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:56.000
Where I guess maybe where where's the company at today?

00:43:56.159 --> 00:43:58.880
And you know, where where are you headed for the future?

00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:00.320
That's a great question.

00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:16.239
Well, we have there's about 10 of us on the Sage Outdoor Advisory side, and we are lucky to have people all over the country, coast to coast, and that that growth has been phenomenal for us.

00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:23.840
So I don't have necessarily desires to grow into this huge company.

00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:34.960
I just we have such a great group of people, both from their work on a professional level as well as just being really kind, fun, interesting individuals.

00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:39.760
We had so much fun in Denver having all of us at a little retreat after the glamping show.

00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:41.199
I just feel so fortunate.

00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:52.400
So I think our growth will be very strategic that we that we don't lose that amazing culture that we have and what we're able to offer to our clients.

00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:56.239
That being said, we are doing more international work.

00:44:56.480 --> 00:45:03.039
We have a project in that we completed in the Bahamas earlier this year that was really unique.

00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:08.639
It was a boutique hotel and renovation of an old beach club.

00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:26.559
And through through my travels and finally attending the first Eco Resort Summit in Greece, I've met a lot of people internationally, and we have partnered with Lars Schaefer of Glamping Advisors, who does a ton of work in Europe and even in South America.

00:45:27.199 --> 00:45:33.039
And we're in the process of formalizing a strategic partnership to do more international work together.

00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:40.719
We're working on a project in Germany now, and I'm really excited about what we can learn from each other and what we can partner and do.

00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:53.280
So I'll be going to the Eco Resort Summit next year in Thailand and continuing to learn more about off-grid building and more international work, mostly because I get excited about it.

00:45:53.440 --> 00:46:04.800
But but you know, the principles are the same, whether you're in the US or outside of it, there's just different regulatory environments and different different supply and demand factors.

00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:13.360
So more to come on working internationally, and we hope to grow our international audience on our podcast.

00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:18.079
And then we want to continue to invest in our data to support the industry.

00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:28.800
We're gonna have our first RV resort market data report released this year, uh, similar to the glamping reports that that we're offering for sale.

00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:36.800
And they'll focus on rate trends and different rate segments and by amenities and by region.

00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:46.559
And um we're gonna continue to do some specialized study to help support studies to help support the industry in making the best decisions they can about investments in the space.

00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:47.280
I love it.

00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:48.079
And it was pretty fun.

00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:57.119
It's pretty fun to be at the glamping show hanging out at the Sage booth and get to see how many Sage clients were there.

00:46:57.280 --> 00:47:08.719
And I, you know, now that you've been in business for so long, to see so many past clients of Sage walking around and coming up to the booth and seeing their projects get built is a really exciting time for the company and cool to see your impact.

00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:12.880
It's no wonder that some people refer to you as the glamping godmother.

00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:21.039
And now we're thrilled to have you here on the podcast as a regular staple figure and co-host.

00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:23.760
So, Sherry, thanks for your time.

00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:25.039
Thanks, Connor.

00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:28.320
I'll have to work on my British accent to fill Nick Purslow's shoes.

00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:30.000
I know it's it's it's hard.

00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:32.320
God, I I missed that accent.

00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:37.840
How is do you have any asks of the audience ways for them to get in touch with you or with the business?

00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:45.679
Yeah, uh, the best place to get in touch with our team in general is the our website, which is SageOutdooradvisory.com.

00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:50.000
You can schedule a free consultation on the link on our landing page.

00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:51.760
You can find me on LinkedIn.

00:47:51.920 --> 00:48:04.239
My last name is H E I L A L A, but also my email address is that same spelling, halala H E I L A L A at Sage Outdoor Advisory.com.

00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:09.440
And we hope you tune in and listen and keep following along on the podcast.

00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:12.239
And we hope to support the industry even more.

00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:13.679
Amazing.

00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:15.039
Thanks so much, Sherry.

00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:16.239
Thanks, Cater.