July 2, 2025

Under Canvas Acquires The Fields! Irene Wood Exclusive (Roundtable Discussion)

Under Canvas Acquires The Fields! Irene Wood Exclusive (Roundtable Discussion)
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In huge news for the glamping industry, The Fields of Michigan has been acquired by glamping giants, Under Canvas.

Irene Wood returns to the pod to give us the lowdown: How it all went down; the advice she'd give to operators looking for a similar exit; and what's next for her.

Irene is always a blast. Give it a listen!

 


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I love the thrill of the kill, and by the kill, I don't mean the kill of the deal, I mean the kill of execution, like being the best at whatever it is that I do.

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Like I love that feeling of knowing that I'm a competitor, and I um and I could go back into this space, or I could go do a hotel, or I could be a ho own a restaurant, and I have lots of uh knives that have been my tools that are knives that have been sharpened that would allow me to play a game again.

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Welcome back to another episode of the Unique Hospitality Podcast.

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I'm your host, Connor Schwab, joined by Nick Berslow.

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And we are uh have a huge treat today, and that is the you might have heard there's some industry-breaking news that the fields was just acquired by Under Canvas, which is uh a big deal and one of the first acquisitions of this kind, which is you know big news for all the glamping operators out there for you know a small independent boutique operator to be acquired by a large institutional player.

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The Fields is founded by Irene Wood, who's a good friend of Nick and I.

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And today we we get to have her on to dive into you know how that process went, lessons learned, what she's up to now, where she sees the industry going.

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Um and yeah, man, Irene's just the best.

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She's she's she's kind of the goat.

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So it's it's a great episode.

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Yeah, this is uh super exciting uh news for you know for everyone in the industry, really.

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First of all, you know, very happy for Irene, who's put a ton of work into the fields, which is out in Michigan since I think 2018 it was founded.

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Um Irene has been on the podcast if you want to go back and listen to a previous episode to hear her story.

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Uh so amazing news for her.

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Um obviously a lot of hard work paying off.

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Interesting actually that it's acquired by Under Canvas because obviously we had Sarah from Under Canvas on who had a similar journey, uh, but she sold in about 2018-2019.

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And again, another kind of trailblazer in the industry whose uh hard work core paid off.

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So it's all good, always good to see that.

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But also exciting news for the industry.

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Uh, every acquisition like this is uh validation for you know what we're trying to do.

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Makes the industry seem a little bit more serious and and and you know, create uh people will see it as an opportunity to get involved, you know, whether it's private equity or investment firms, uh, which is always good for you know independent operators looking for an exit.

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So uh super exciting for them both.

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And yeah, we had Irene on today, fantastic guest as ever.

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She just the reason why she's been so successful and why the field has been so successful is she just gets what it what it takes to be a top operator.

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She lives in Brees Glampen and everything she does, lives in Breeze Hospitality, and she just understands what it takes to create a world-class guest experience.

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So that's why um her business has been acquired.

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Uh and yeah, it was great to kind of find out how that process came about, uh, the advice she'd give to people looking to kind of follow in her footsteps.

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Uh, and yeah, it's always a pleasure to speak to and listen to Irene, who you know is is just so so wise when it comes to operating these businesses.

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So yeah, I'm um I was super excited to have her back on.

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Uh, and I guess without further ado, here's Irene.

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Welcome back to another episode of the Unique Hospitality Podcasts.

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I'm your host, Connor Schwab, joined by Nick Perslow and a very special guest today, a returning guest, but uh with some very exciting updates.

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Irene Wood.

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Irene, welcome to the show.

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Thank you for having me back again.

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Feels like I was just here, I don't know, yesterday, an hour ago, six years ago, who knows?

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Time has condensed.

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And uh Nick did an episode with Irene.

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Oh, how long ago do you think it was, Nick?

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Uh it was 2024, I think.

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I think maybe latter half of that year, but you you're Irene, I'm the same.

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I've got I've got absolutely no idea.

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Yeah, I was like, light screens for you too, so let's have it yourself.

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We're moving at lightning speed.

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Yeah, well, so if uh uh Irene uh founded, created, and uh ran the Fields up in Michigan.

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And if you haven't heard of the Fields, then I'm not sure if you've had your your head in the sand in this industry, but you know, she's she's very well known in the space, um, very involved in the American Glamping Association at the Glamping Show.

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It's kind of been a household name in the in the glamping space.

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Um and recently she became her property, the fields uh in up in Michigan became the first ever acquisition of Under Canvas, which is massively exciting and quite uh, I think uh just a compliment to the work and the the brand and the business that Irene has built to uh attract such a reputable um investor and brand in the space.

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So we're really excited to dive into that as well as other things in Irene's world today.

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Um but Irene, maybe you could just give us a real brief intro on like what the fields is, kind of 60 seconds for anyone who who isn't familiar.

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So like my elevator pitch.

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Yeah.

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It's so weird because it's not mine anymore.

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So to be able to talk about it is a little funky.

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Well, and it's funny because I'm just gonna say this.

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Do you ever have moments of vanity?

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Or am I the am I the only person?

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Oh I know Nick does.

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Yeah, after I get back from the gym and I'm looking in the mirror, yeah.

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Well, he's looking.

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Um, no, so really the whole process.

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So the fields is my baby.

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It started actually after a trip that I had gone and experienced this sort of travel with collective retreats.

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So about eight years ago, my husband and I went out to their property at the time, it was in Big Sky.

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We stayed on their property, we did all the adventure things.

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We white rotter rafted, we float fished, we um played Scrabble at night.

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We just were one of the best vacations we ever had.

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Now, I could I could argue that it was a milestone birthday.

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I could argue that it was over our anniversary weekend, I could say there was a lot of factors at play.

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But really what I loved most was we had two type A personalities who were used to perfect weather vacations.

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I mean, we were like changing itineraries when the weather wasn't going to be good to where we were going because we both worked so hard.

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Um, and we were just managing every portion of our vacation.

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What I loved about this specific trip was it rained one day, it snowed the next day, the weather was terrible, the mosquitoes were outrageous.

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We had zero control and we loved it.

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We napped, which we never do, we played Scrabble, which we never do.

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We drank wine, like sitting on a bed, which we haven't done since we started dating.

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There was just a lot of the um a lot of the playful things that you get to do when you do a trip like this that you can't do when you're going and staying at a$5,000 night,$4,000 night,$3,000 a night,$2,000 a night location.

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And I remember we had gotten back from that trip, and my husband was like, you know, that was such a great trip.

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We should do something like that close to home.

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And lo and behold, nobody had tapped the Midwest.

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And so, like the crazy person that I am, and you guys all know me now, I called Pete and I was like, hey, stayed at your property.

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Um thinking that you should open up one in Michigan and I'll be your operator.

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And he never called back.

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And then after like six weeks of doing the call, up into including the, hey, we have a mutual friend.

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Hey, I stayed on your property, have some feedback.

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Hey, like all the things that you would normally think would get you the call back, I didn't get.

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So I went home one day and I told my husband, I go, I'm gonna do it.

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He's like, Do what?

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I go, you know that whole like clamping thing that we did out west?

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I'm gonna do it in Michigan.

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And he was like, I just thought maybe you were just like daydreaming that.

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I didn't really think you were going to do it.

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And um, thus the feels was born.

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So the feels was born out of just kind of the love.

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I'm not really an outdoorsy person.

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So I want to tell you, I'm gonna be really clear, don't love the outdoors.

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I love what feelings get invigorated when I'm in the outdoors or when I'm doing things that are pretty simple.

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So what I find to be as glamping when I hate the word, but I love it's like life's simplest pleasures, like this return to just simplicity and what that does for creativity, what it does for love, what it does for connection.

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And um, that's the part that I love the most of it.

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So that was what the fields was born on.

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It was born on this love of authenticity, simplicity, and um the slow slowness of life.

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And then how do I create that in a way that the other irones of the world or people that are similar to me have that opportunity to kind of experience it too?

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Not 60 seconds, but you get the and so what did what did the fields become from that that vision?

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Yeah, so originally, and again, this was I mean, everybody's still struggling in the same spot.

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I started off with 10 tents.

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These were like the typical canvas, Montana Canvas, Safari style tents with bathrooms, and a tiny little pavilion that was our gathering space.

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From there, you know, our business kind of we did a really nice job as a team executing our vision and strategy, and that allowed us to do things like make reinvestments, capital investments, add more units, add more um like ancillary things.

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We put a spa in, we put a restaurant in, um, we put a pool in, we then expanded into cottages so that we, as the consumer experienced us, we were able to layer in new experiences that still had them feeling like they wanted to come experience us at its peers form, but then get the elevated form year over year over year.

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And you the episode that you came on last was um with with Ben Wolf umara, and and the the theme of the episode was kind of hands-on versus hands-off hospitality, with Ben's site being uh, you know, pretty hands-off minimal staff interaction, whereas you're on the other end of the scale, uh, and you know, you wanted those spontaneous interactions with guests, right?

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Both with with you and your staff, and and that was a core part of the experience.

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Yeah, I can't imagine a world, and I I really believe this.

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I think Ben's wrong.

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And I I don't know most people say that about Ben.

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Ben's right in a lot of things, but I think in this particular area, he's wrong.

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And I think that hospitality, I can't think of a single brand that has lasted the test of time that has been hands-off.

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Should we have a round two?

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Should we call Ben up now?

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But I think we have entered maybe in a cycle where people are antisocial and they're on their phones and they're looking for a way to like disconnect, disconnect.

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But I think when it comes to hospitality, which this falls under the category of, I think that it is always the missed opportunity when you cannot put a human touch to it.

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Yeah, and especially with, I mean, especially with AI, like, you know, with just so many tasks being able to be automated in such a sophisticated way, particularly like messaging, phone calls, emails, all of that, I think it adds more value to the to the human touch component, and whether that's a check-in or when you're on site or a phone call from a real human, you know, things like that, I think mean more.

00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:07.440
And then what what did what did the property look like you know in its final year in terms of I know F and B was a big component, I know you expanded the unit count.

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Yeah, what did it look like in its in its latest year?

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Okay, so in the in the year before I sold, which um I'll tell you we we had a total of, so we started with 10 tenths, then we added nine more for a total of 29.

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Then what we did was we expanded primitives just to kind of see do we have some people that want to enter the market by the market meaning we'll call our field family, our field guests who are aspirational but can't hit that 400, 450 a night.

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So we put primitives in.

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So then we went to four primitives, 19 tents for a total of 23 units.

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Then what we did was we said, okay, guests are starting to evolve.

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Tents are cool, we're in year six with tents.

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We've got to start to meet the next layer of guests.

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The guest that's found us, who I and I always put guests in buckets, but I'm gonna use her name as Maude for an example.

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She's French, she shows up in her Chanel rain boots, and it's stink bug season.

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And I'll call stink bug season as if it is one.

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It's just when they show up, they're there.

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And she doesn't want to see them, doesn't even want to know that they exist.

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And how do you do that in a tent?

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You can't.

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So what we did was we worked with an architect and a local designer and we put cottages in.

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So by the time that we ended at the end of last year, we had four primitives, nine, no, ten tents, and then nine cottages.

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Some of the cottages had queens, the other cottages had kings, and then we had done the work to do expansion for an additional uh two two additional phases, and those phases included um two more septics and a total of approximately 40 more sites.

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This is a bit of a tangent, but I think it's worth it.

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Can you can you tell me a little bit more about what the primitive sites were like compared to the nicer tents?

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Yeah, so they're pretty typical of what you might expect.

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So primitives I would call rustics or so no bathrooms.

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So exactly the same kind of tent.

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King bed, you know, serviced, um, no power.

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So like power would be batteried, battery-packed.

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So we were hitting the guests at the 150 a night range, not at the 450 a night range.

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And then they would have bag showers, so like solar bag showers, they would go to the, you know, we would behind the tents, we had these little decks with bamboo fences that they could go in and bag shower it or go up to the main building um for a restroom.

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So I have a client that I or sorry, I have a theory that I usually tell clients I'd be really curious on your feedback, and that is, and this mostly comes from my work in the R V side of the industry where when RV sites try to add clamping units, there's just a huge price ceiling.

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You know, they're not gonna be able to get above 300 a night for a glamping unit, even if the bathroom is super nice at an RV resort, just because it's at an RV resort.

00:13:57.519 --> 00:13:57.759
Yep.

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And so that kind of translated into the glamping space for me where it was like my theory is essentially that like your the the the peak of your price is gonna be somewhat anchored by your lowest priced unit.

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And I often cache it's kind of like a rubber band almost, like um for the luxury feel of the entire property, could be anchored by the lowest price unit.

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So like if someone's putting in really nice clamping units, I would usually caution them against putting in primitive campgrounds or RV sites or even potentially a unit like without a bathroom that's considerably a lower price point.

00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:38.879
Um I would just I was curious what your opinion is on that, if you agree or disagree.

00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:42.399
I never it never affected the upper units.

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What it did affect was let's say I have 100% occupancy in the upper two units, cottages, tents, the primitives.

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It was really we thought maybe we would sell out of those, we would get more people in there, or we would get people that were um maybe not of the same, I'm not using the word demographic, but maybe of the same, like maybe somebody who was a little bit more rustic mixing with somebody who wanted caviar and champagne, would that affect the experience of the 75% of camp that has champagne and caviar?

00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:20.960
And what we found actually, the answer that was no, but we also found it was the hardest ones for us to fill were the primitives.

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Because we, I think some of it was we had already started a brand that everybody had a bathroom.

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And then we went to everybody has a bathroom, and now people have cottages.

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And so then the rest of the people, because it's we put them not in the prime locations, like I would call it a subprime location, but we were like, man, we're having a really hard time getting people to come in and stay in these.

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We can manipulate the price even low, but our guess, our clientele is like, no, thank you.

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Like, I'm not staying somewhere where there's no electricity, I don't have a bathroom.

00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:52.159
So it was all right, then we we try that for a year, we're not getting the occupancy.

00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:53.759
Everybody's wanting those to have bathrooms.

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What does it take for us to get those bath those with bathrooms?

00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:01.600
So phase one and phase two took that area that was primitives that we were kind of testing out how does that feel?

00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:03.519
How does service feel in this area?

00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:11.440
And um, as part of the phase one and phase two expansion from this year forward, which isn't my expansion, but the one that I put in play.

00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:16.720
So whatever undercamus does, they do, but is um all with bathrooms.

00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:17.759
Gotcha.

00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:18.559
Okay, thank you.

00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:19.600
Thanks for humoring me.

00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:20.000
Yep.

00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:29.279
All right, so you know, I'm sure the the listeners are are dying to know, you know, what can you tell us about your, you know, selling your business to to undercampus?

00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:32.799
Yeah, you know, I'll start with what can I tell you about selling a business?

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Because I think that there is something to be said about selling a business that unless unless you're in the room, you never know what's in the room.

00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:42.879
Like it's like giving birth to a child.

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You guys will never know what that feels like.

00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:52.240
Now you can see it through the eyes of your partner, but the reality is you're never gonna know what that pain feels like until you go through it.

00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:58.159
So I'll start with if anybody ever wondered what it's like to sell a business, it's painful.

00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:06.880
It is painful in a multitude of ways, and it's something that somebody who has never started a business could never know.

00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:43.119
So when you start a business, like all of you, um you started with a little seed in your mind, and it has stories like where you came up with the name of your business, the location you choose for your business, the unit types, the team that you hire, and all the little intricate decisions that you make, your POS system, your booking platform, where you make your bank account, all of those things that you take for granted because they're burdens to your business while you're running your business, they get um, they're these pieces of memory that just kind of get built up.

00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:50.960
And I have to assume, um, because at the time, and I'll be really candid, under canvas wasn't the only person looking at the fields.

00:17:51.119 --> 00:18:02.160
We actually had, and I didn't know what was happening, but I knew something must have been in the market, but we had three different, I'll call strategics who were looking at me.

00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:08.000
I'll start with I was um I'm you're outwitted.

00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:21.519
If you are an independent um person and you didn't grow up around whether it's private equity or banks or bankers or brokers, and that's just not in your day-to-day repertoire.

00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:33.519
There is a lot of um skill out there that takes your business, and I'll use a home or a business, and it devalues it or values it.

00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:35.119
So we'll use a home for an example.

00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:43.599
You want to buy a house, you go to a house, they do the inspection, and then all of a sudden, you're for this conversation,$500,000 house is now a$400,000 house.

00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:51.279
You didn't know your roof needed something, you didn't know that you know, the two people that somebody died in your house before that diminished its value.

00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.400
It's like all the all the skeletons come out of the closet.

00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:59.200
But I'll tell you the whole process of selling took about a year.

00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:10.240
Um, it was I learned more in the last eight years of running the business and selling the business than I could ever learn, ever learn again.

00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:14.160
I'll never have those opportunities to sell your first business, to build your first business, right?

00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:18.720
It'll always, if you do it again, it's always like number two and you you come with different skill sets.

00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:21.839
Um, but I would tell you, I learned a ton.

00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:29.519
I um I'm overwhelmed with the amount of skill that is out there in the acquisition world.

00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:40.240
I am certainly um, I don't want to say selling is like a little bittersweet, but it's sad sometimes when I mean I'm still connected to my entire team.

00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:41.839
I that it's my team.

00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:46.000
And I miss those like that playful daily interactions.

00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:47.680
I miss the guests tremendously.

00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:50.559
We had guests that came back year after year after year.

00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:54.240
So there's lots of mixed feelings as it relates to that.

00:19:54.480 --> 00:20:08.720
Um, but it was time to do one of two things either sell and allow somebody else to grow it, or double down, take another leap of faith and risk with finances, and then do it myself.

00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:18.880
And it felt like the market that I was in was starting to see the likes of getaway, under canvas, autocamp.

00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:35.599
You know, you knew you were gonna start to have to compete with the same number of travelers in an area that potentially was becoming oversaturated simply because that area was being seen as the next area to kind of, all right, the star report looks great.

00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:37.599
We're gonna go, we gotta go find another spot.

00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:40.720
We've run out of national parks, let's go to South Haven, Michigan.

00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:59.279
When you say, when you say selling was hard, is it do you mean more it was like hard to get rid of, you know, get rid of your baby, or hard in the sense that like it was an arduous process and the the details and the and the the learnings and the processes and the lawyer speak and the numbers and the negotiations, that part was hard.

00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:00.400
Um both.

00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:15.519
And while you're going through kind of the the second, the ladder that you said, you know, the attorneys, the legal, the accounting, the all of the inspections, I'll call it's like your home inspection, um, which can take months.

00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:18.640
That is, and you're trying to run your business.

00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:27.680
So you're still trying to run and operate a business, and now you've, and as all of you know, when you run this business, the amount of hours free that you have in the day to just do something extra is zero.

00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:32.799
So to figure out what you're giving up to kind of work through that process is challenging.

00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:51.519
And um, and then you're showing somebody you know, you're I don't want I almost used the word under the covers, which you can't say, but you're like showing somebody the inner workings of your business that could ease so you're cautious because they could also be a competitor at any time, right?

00:21:51.599 --> 00:22:02.319
You're just there's a lot of um maneuvering that takes place when it's a sophisticated buyer, like any private equity-backed um group.

00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:10.240
When it's a handshake between Connor Schwab and Irene, and you've always wanted to run a glamping set and you wanted to come by the fields, that's super simplistic.

00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:13.440
That's like two honest people shaking hands and moving forward.

00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:19.599
When you're doing deals that have eight lawyers on a side, that's hard.

00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:20.400
That's hard.

00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:28.079
So yeah, I mean on under Canvas is is private equity backed, you know, that private equity, the whole business model is buying and selling businesses.

00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:29.440
So, you know, it's what they do.

00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:36.720
And as you said, you know, you're a first-time seller, there is a huge um imbalance in in knowledge of how to go through this process.

00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:46.559
So, how how how does a a first-time seller deal with that and prepare themselves for that huge imbalance when when an offer like that does come in?

00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:49.519
Well, I'll start with I don't know how they can do it.

00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:51.279
And I'm gonna be really honest.

00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:53.039
I I thought about that through too.

00:22:53.119 --> 00:23:03.759
I was like, how can how does a normal person, and I don't mean normal as if I'm I'm normal, but how does a person get a deal done like this?

00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:06.640
Either they say yes to everything, right?

00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:15.039
It's like you're just kind of the okay, like it's the yes out of flattery, like somebody wants me, okay, I'll say yes, or yes out of desperation.

00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:20.000
I want to be out of this business so bad, just take this business, I'll say yes to whatever you give me.

00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:24.079
Or you're in this more of like, is this a partnership?

00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:25.200
Is this the right fit for us?

00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:26.880
And so you're doing this dance.

00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:33.839
And I would tell you, um, I the reason I was able to survive the process is my husband has done this.

00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:49.440
I mean, he's been a you know, serial CEO for many years, done lots of acquisitions, but really gave me all the rope in the room or all the rope in the world to figure it out or not.

00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:58.240
And he didn't want me to be regretful that I didn't make decisions that felt instinctive, and he didn't want to take away my opportunity to learn it myself.

00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:05.680
But I remember thinking like month three or month four, you know, when there's deal fatigue is kind of a term that they talk about.

00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:12.960
But I remember thinking to myself, how in the world does like somebody who doesn't have a Kerry Wood next to them do this?

00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:19.200
Who I was using his corporate counsel to review what was provided to me by somebody else's counsel.

00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:21.759
So I think that that's some of the other things too.

00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:32.960
It's like you have to, because the council in South Haven, Michigan does not know, they're not looking at these kinds of contracts that are coming through from a sophisticated private equity group, no matter which one it is.

00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:41.440
And again, you have to remember we had opportunities with three different ones that we were that we were dual pathing until you get to a certain spot.

00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:48.640
And in those cases, those those legal words and the and that that legal paperwork is overwhelming.

00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:50.559
It's my nightmare personally.

00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:53.119
Yeah, that's definitely a weakness of mine.

00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:59.680
Did you um so so you had um your husband's corporate counsel helping you navigate that a little bit?

00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:00.079
Yep.

00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:07.680
Um, I was gonna ask, like, you know, who who would you, you know, if someone calls you be like, hey, I'm interested in buying your business, things start to get complex.

00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:08.559
Like, who do you call?

00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:10.640
You know, who are the people like do you call broker?

00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:11.519
Do you call legal?

00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:13.759
You know, like who are the people that help navigate something?

00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:24.480
I mean, you're gonna call a broker, but you're gonna pay a percentage to a broker, but your broker's still not gonna be reading, they they don't have the legal advice to read through a 130-page document.

00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:28.400
I mean, so you uh you end up with both expenses.

00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:30.880
Yeah, it's it's very it's very tricky.

00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:40.720
Uh how big of an advantage was it, you know, my my brother who I consider to be very smart and he's a commercial broker and has been for a long time in development and does deals.

00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:47.759
Yeah, he always said one of the best things that you can have uh in doing deals is options.

00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:59.279
Um and like in your in your case where you're like, hey, I had three different groups interested in me, how big of a how big of an advantage was that to you?

00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:15.759
And also I hear my MBA teachers saying, you know, as soon as someone as soon as someone calls you, you know, and offers your business, you like you say, hold on, let me call you back, you hang up and you you do your own calculation to decide what you think your business is worth to you before they say a price.

00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:25.519
And then so you don't get anchored by a price they suggest, and then you immediately think of who else might be interested in buying this business that I could, you know, reach out to or or or sell to.

00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:28.160
So yeah, how how big of a difference did that make for you?

00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:29.920
Um, here's what it was.

00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:36.400
I mean, I think again, I learned that with private equity, three different groups could be three different, very different deals.

00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:38.400
So it's not.

00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:43.920
I just assumed I lived in a world where, like buying a home.

00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:56.079
If you put your business up for sale, your business sells like a broker, you sell your business and and people bid on it, and you're selling it to the counter schwabs and the knicks of the world.

00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:05.680
What I didn't hadn't grown into or hadn't learned was that there's a whole other person that likes to play the game a little differently.

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:06.319
Right?

00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:10.079
They're buying it for a strategic person, uh purpose.

00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:14.480
They're buying it for um, they need to, they have to purchase land, right?

00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:17.039
They've got to buy women-owned businesses.

00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:24.319
I mean, there's lots of different funds doing lots of different things and purchasing profitable assets for different reasons.

00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:31.680
So I would say in all cases, there were three different deals, and each deal was structured very differently than one another.

00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:38.240
And there are some that you have great chemistry with, like you're like, oh, this feels like I could be best friends with you.

00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:40.000
There's others that you don't.

00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:45.839
Um, so there's a lot of decision making, and I'll just use it back to a house for sale.

00:27:45.920 --> 00:28:00.240
If you did an open house for your house and lots of people came through, somebody you may like fall in love with somebody's story and really want to sell to them because they've got two kids and a golden retriever, and you know, I don't know, they're she bakes cookies.

00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:04.640
And there's another one who's willing to pay more, but he showed up in a Maserati and he's an asshole.

00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:11.200
So I think that there is like the whole swath of opportunities for business.

00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:19.359
Selling a business is just so different and so unique, and it's really based on the funds structure of deals.

00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:23.200
And that's when we talk about this, it's like, I didn't know that language.

00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:24.799
I mean, they know that language.

00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:34.079
So, so doing any business with a sophisticated bank, a sophisticated private equity partner, not being in the room or having those knives sharpened.

00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:38.240
I'm a great operator, I'm not a great banker or broker.

00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:43.119
So that's where you're like, oh man, I I this is a room I'm not even in.

00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:47.839
How do I sharpen tools to be able to even listen to the conversations, know what a worth is, etc.?

00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:50.160
Did you want to sell at this point?

00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:50.720
No.

00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:56.559
So that presumably would have helped you negotiate a little bit if you didn't feel like you had to.

00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:58.640
Um, yeah, no, I didn't.

00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:07.599
I again, I I'll start with I always I um I always did the fields thinking of an exit.

00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:08.880
Like, am I gonna do this forever?

00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:11.039
And it's too hard of work to do it forever, period.

00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:12.000
End of story.

00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:17.920
Especially the way that I was doing it, which is as an owner operator, not as an owner.

00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:19.039
I think that there's a difference.

00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:22.720
The owners, I mean, they don't, they're not showing up to work when somebody doesn't come in.

00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:23.920
They have a general manager that does it.

00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:24.880
I was the owner operator.

00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:28.319
So I think to do that for 20 years was not in the cards.

00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:31.440
So um, I always thought about it.

00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:36.480
I didn't, I didn't think I hadn't reached full potential yet.

00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:46.720
I still had some developmental milestones in my strategy before I felt like I was hitting full stride that hadn't been realized, that was just starting to come to realization.

00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:57.920
And I wanted to be able to run with that and have you know a year or two of a run rate with those numbers and that business before I, and I'm gonna say went to market, whatever that looks like in the lamping worlds, right?

00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:59.599
Like through a broker, through a banker.

00:29:59.680 --> 00:29:59.839
I mean.

00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:01.519
I mean that's tricky too.

00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:05.839
Was was the transaction, I guess, like fee simple basically.

00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:09.119
They gave you all cash and they got 100% of the business.

00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:10.480
You're look no longer involved.

00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:12.559
Was it just a clean, clean transaction?

00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:14.480
Yeah, so it was clean.

00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:15.119
Okay.

00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:15.440
Yeah.

00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:20.480
Did you want to be involved or were you kind of like, I'd rather just have it be clean?

00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:23.519
You know, it's six and one half dozen.

00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:27.519
I would think every owner wants to be wanted.

00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:28.079
Right?

00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:30.160
There's this like, it's my baby, I want to want it.

00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:35.119
Of course, I'm the smartest person that knows all the answers to all the questions you're ever going to want to know.

00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:50.079
There is this other part that says, and especially with private equity groups that have, you know, multiple sites, um, to be able to say, actually, our savings is when you come out of the business.

00:30:50.400 --> 00:31:01.200
Because they they start to make decisions that are different than mine and um have more resources to move at faster paces than maybe me.

00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:04.319
And I think at some point there is this.

00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:06.880
I'll use private equity example.

00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:12.160
We have data that suggests that if we bring an owner on, 10% of the time it works.

00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:14.160
Let's just cut paid to start, right?

00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:16.400
Like let's just know, let's just move where the data takes us.

00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:20.960
They're much more data-driven and less with like, how does this feel?

00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:22.640
Oh, we really love her.

00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:23.759
She's so sweet.

00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.000
It's like, actually, nope, we're not gonna fall down that trap.

00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:27.279
90% of the time it doesn't work out.

00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:33.920
We're gonna move forward with just clean break, uh, well, yes, transition time, and of course there's a transition time.

00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:39.039
I mean, even still today, my team called, you know, and they're like, hey, listen, when this happens, what do we do?

00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:46.000
You know, like like institutional knowledge, um, because you're there to support your team, and you also want a business to be successful.

00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:59.599
So we we obviously we've obviously covered the the rise of under canvas pretty extensively, and how you know Sarah Dusick was uh you know, was everything to that, and how it started as a mom and pop operation and then just grew to crazy size.

00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:06.000
Does it feel yeah, it's been what six years now since Sarah exited that business?

00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:10.400
Does it feel like an extension of a private equity firm these days?

00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:14.559
Or do you still feel like that that kind of heart of hospitality is still there?

00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:16.640
Wow, that's a tricky question.

00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:19.680
You know, I'll say this.

00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:28.160
It's not, I'll I'll say I don't know, I can't compare under Canvas to maybe how it was under Sarah's regime.

00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:33.839
Um, I would tell you it isn't I it's I don't want to call it the field way.

00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:36.960
The way that they do things is different than the way Irene does things.

00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:42.720
But there's a reason that they're much larger and more successful than Irene One Site was.

00:32:43.599 --> 00:33:04.799
But I I would tell you there is, you know, Sarah and I are good friends, and um there is something I think that that's what when I was looking through the list of the questions that you guys were gonna ask today, I was going to say the differentiating factor is glamping is hospitality.

00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:21.359
And hospitality gets very hard to do at scale, and it's matched most perfectly with authenticity and kindness and care when there's a human being behind it that has everything at stake.

00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:30.240
So I I think that um you're gonna come in ten years, we're gonna look back and we're gonna go, what was the most successful ones?

00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:32.880
Like, what's the ones that crushed it?

00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:36.160
It's the brands that have a name with a face.

00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:49.599
Now you can put a lot of money and and marketing and superpower behind it because we hear what Sarah's deal was, and we're all like, oh, we want to be this, you know, we want to have one, you know, three or four sites or seven sites, and we want that check.

00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:56.400
But the reality is that hospitality is born out of this like wanting to serve and wanting to care.

00:33:56.640 --> 00:34:08.800
I don't know how you do that at scale, which makes it really hard for me to understand a world where the top glamping products out there will be all national brand.

00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:14.960
I think that they will all favor kind of these smaller um mom and pa shops.

00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:15.440
I do.

00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:30.960
It is it is interesting because I believe you, as far as I am aware, I think you are the first or maybe like second or third boutique single site operation to be acquired by a larger brand that I'm aware of.

00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:32.400
Um do you know of any others?

00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:34.239
Do either of you know of any others?

00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:36.320
I think maybe Wildflower.

00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:43.840
But Ben Wolf doesn't class himself as Glampin, same as Isaac French, but you could argue, you know, micros or independent operations.

00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:44.960
Um true.

00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:48.960
I think there's been a few littered about, but no, not a huge scale.

00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:50.159
Yeah.

00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:52.639
Yeah, maybe you're the first canvas-based.

00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:56.559
Well, and I think it's because when we look back at kind of what the trends are.

00:34:56.639 --> 00:35:02.800
I mean, Travis Chambers is crushing it, but some of it is that people are attracted to other humans on the other side.

00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:04.079
They want to be in their world.

00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:10.880
You know, when you're um, I think of Travis, who really Travis and Ben, in my view, do it the best.

00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:14.719
Um, I think Isaac does a great job too, but he's exited, so it's hard.

00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:25.840
He's not, it's once you exit, it's hard to be, I'm not using the word relevant, but the consumer changes so rapidly that it's hard to kind of have your grasps on what are my guests experiencing?

00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:28.800
Because you don't have guests to experience it to take that as data points.

00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:54.400
But I'll tell you, I'm um I think when I'm paying attention to those businesses that are that are exceeding statistics of national brands or just industry standards, it's these one-off men wolves, Isaac French's, The Fields, Outpost X, Bolt Treehouse.

00:35:54.639 --> 00:36:04.639
I mean, it's those brands that have super high social media followings and like cult-like followings with super fans.

00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:16.960
And they're fans, either they connect with the brand because the brand speaks to them, whether it's based on religion, whether it's based on um location, it's based on theme.

00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:24.239
Um, but I think that those are the ones that become attractive to a national brand because they're like, holy cow, how are they getting that?

00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:30.400
If we pulled this into it, maybe there's some things we can learn from these, or they're the profitable ones out of the group.

00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:31.760
They're super brands.

00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:44.159
Yeah, um, I've noticed recently that Bolt Farm have significantly stepped up their kind of founder-led marketing, like um Seth and Tori are doing content all the time now, and it's they don't even mention Bolt Farm at times.

00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:49.199
It's kind of focused on them, and it's almost like uh it's like a Netflix show almost.

00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:55.360
Like, and they're they're obviously very good at that, that you know, they've both been in the media for a long time and that's and they're super attractive, let's not kid ourselves.

00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:56.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:56.320
Oh, yeah.

00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:01.840
I mean, there's a lot of things going on with those guys, right?

00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:02.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:24.960
And I think that's a bit, and I think sometimes you know it that they've got the perfect storm where it's like you know, not everyone can replicate that, not everyone has the mind like Travis Chambers, for example, where you know he's he's you know, he'll admit he's a little bit crazy, and like you know, not everyone can replicate that, but it's kind of picking up little bits and trying to you know emulate but but put your own spin on it that I think it is the way to go.

00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:27.760
But I also you know I've had conversations before.

00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:42.400
Obviously, what we're trying to do at Posh is sometimes you know, maybe my business partner will say, Oh, no, we can achieve these rates that Bolt Farm are doing by you know putting these basics in place, but sometimes there is that intangible attractiveness, charisma on camera that you're just never gonna be able to do.

00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:48.000
So I think it is important to recognize what you can emulate and what you know maybe is a little bit out of reach.

00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:55.360
The amount of times I've had that conversation of people using Bolt Farm as a comp, and I'm like, all right, you're not gonna be able to get those rates.

00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:59.199
Yeah, like well, and not only that, but you may not be able to get those rates now.

00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:01.199
I mean, I think that that's where rates go.

00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:05.360
I I'm I'm um I just bought tickets to Outstanding in the Field.

00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:07.519
Have you guys heard of Outstanding in the Field?

00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:19.199
It's these dinners that flow at all the most beautiful fields and farms in the United States, and you know, they partner up with a local chef, kind of a notable chef, and it's been branded.

00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:22.079
It's I think it's like in its year 12th year.

00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:24.960
But it's uh I'll call it a super brand, right?

00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:35.280
I mean, it's they have a vehicle, like at this um bus that they take to each location, they they do the same sort of sitting at every location.

00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:37.760
They do great photography, they do great videography.

00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:42.719
It's like the one night a year that I splurge for a dinner like this.

00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:46.719
And um, the reason I do it is I'm a super fan of the brand.

00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:52.320
And I know what that feels like, and I know what it's like when I get my friends to treat them to this dinner.

00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:56.239
Nobody else is getting that price point for a dinner, not even close.

00:38:56.400 --> 00:39:14.559
And part of it is, but it took them 12 years to ramp up what it was that they were doing, to start a following, to make it very enticing, to market it, to brand it, then to limit it so that people like Irene, the day that the tickets go on sale, booked for the slots that are nearest to me.

00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:22.320
So I think that that's maybe social media has this incredible um power that I still think is still untapped.

00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:31.440
I mean, we just did this class, we did uh masterclass for 10, and Ben came and talked with the group about social media and its impact on his bookings.

00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:42.800
You know, when he's getting ADRs of 500 plus, and he's in what I would call the most saturated market in the United States, and he's running at 80% occupancy, the kid's crushing it.

00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:47.920
Whereas other people in the same market are doing 10%.

00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:49.519
What's the difference?

00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:51.679
It's and you may argue his accommodation.

00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:52.559
No, it's him.

00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:54.159
He's a super brand.

00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:58.000
Was having super fans a big part in your acquisition?

00:39:58.079 --> 00:39:58.320
Do you think?

00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:00.960
Yeah, uh, I don't think it for them, no.

00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:06.079
I think for them this was an a location and it was a profitable business.

00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:11.519
But presumably having super fans resulted in the or caused the profitable business.

00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:17.519
Uh, I think superfans um was the reason that we had, you know, we were booked out a year in advance.

00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:25.599
It was the reason that we're able to get the full cycle of a guest, you know, from staying to engage to married to baby, you know, the full circle.

00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:32.880
I think it's part of the reason that um they bring their friends along when they come, and so one reservation turns into four.

00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:35.760
So I think that's part of the lure.

00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:41.119
But but I would tell you, you can't do that without high touch.

00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:46.480
So that those are relationships that have to be fostered, maintained.

00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:52.480
Whether it's, you know, when you think of the people that are performing the best in social media and we'll use influencers as an as an example.

00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:58.480
I mean, they have to be on there all the time talking to their fans, right?

00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:05.679
So you have to be doing the same thing in it in the same way and not making them feel anonymous, making them feel seen.

00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:13.440
So engaging with them, talking with them, showing them what they're missing, inviting them to come stay, uh, following up after they do stay.

00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:16.719
So that's a that's the heavier lift side of things.

00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:17.920
Hello, listeners.

00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:21.119
This is Sherry Halala, founder of Sage Outdoor Advisory.

00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:24.559
If you're launching an outdoor hospitality project like Clamping, we can help.

00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:26.880
We offer feasibility studies and appraisals.

00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:35.119
What that means is we look at your specific market and proposed business offering and complete an in-depth analysis to make sure that your planned business will be profitable.

00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:42.880
Getting a second opinion on your proposal and forecasted financials is critical to understand before you spend years of your time and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:47.920
This is particularly important if you are looking to raise money for your project from a bank or private investors.

00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:53.599
They are going to want to see this type of deep dive analysis from an independent third-party specialist in the industry.

00:41:53.760 --> 00:42:02.239
We at Sage have completed well over 250 feasibility studies and appraisals in outdoor hospitality in North America in the last four years.

00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:06.159
So we understand what it takes to bring a project from concept to reality.

00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:12.880
If this sounds like it could be helpful to you, you can go to our website, SageOutdoorAdvisory.com, and schedule a call with our team.

00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:16.559
While you're there, check out our proprietary glamping database map too.

00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:17.039
Thanks.

00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:18.000
Now back to the show.

00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:30.239
As you were going through the sales process of your business, what what were you really happy that you had done in the way you set up your business or it was structured that was really very helpful?

00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:33.280
And was there anything you were kind of kicking yourself that you'd wish you'd done?

00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:38.800
You know, I would tell everybody, and we just did this, so back to this masterclass, we used Q.

00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:40.320
Q Hospitality with Quinn.

00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:45.519
Yeah, we we used Quinn to do a session on um how they rate properties for management.

00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:51.039
Like how do we go in and know kind of what levers we're doing really good on, what levers we're not doing great on.

00:42:51.199 --> 00:43:01.840
And then we can assess from operational perspective, what levers do we think we can move, what levers do we think we can't move for operational excellence?

00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:10.079
Because at the end of the day, that's the score that you get judged on by everybody.

00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:12.320
Like, what's your financial performance?

00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:16.639
And your financial performance is driven by you guys know this, revenue, cost.

00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:26.880
So I would say um, the areas that I think that we I would recommend for everybody is to have a really clear understanding of your financials.

00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:28.400
So clean financials.

00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:33.679
So if you're thinking you want to go to market, um, you know, we had quality of earnings.

00:43:33.840 --> 00:44:00.559
So that's you know, where you pay somebody an exorbitant amount of money to go through all of your financial uh years of finances and come up with what is a clean financial report that says money coming in has been reconciled with money going out, and this is what the performance of that looks like, and it's unedited, meaning I can't skew it to say that I do better than I think I can, and somebody can't say you didn't do as good as you have.

00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:01.679
So quality of earnings.

00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:06.880
Is that different than just having a certified accountant go through and do your books and accounting each year?

00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:08.000
Interesting.

00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:16.320
And so so you just you pay extra for us an even higher level of accounting certification, and that's all based on historicals?

00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:37.199
Yeah, because your accountant, even though you have like we had um our accountant does our books every year, the way that she does it is if I say, I'll use this as an example, but let's say, and I think a lot of people that are owner operators know this, there's some personal stuff that gets in the mix.

00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:44.159
Or your reporting may not be you're you may be reporting accrual versus cash.

00:44:44.480 --> 00:45:11.679
So what they're doing is they're taking every single credit card statement, um, bank statement, expense, and going through and categorizing it and putting it together so that a sophisticated buyer on the other end on the other end is able to look at um all the financial detail that sophisticated buyers need to see in order for them to underwrite deals.

00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:14.880
What what does that cost to get someone to do a quality of earnings?

00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:16.559
50,000 for us.

00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:18.800
Fuck my gosh.

00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:22.239
And even if I assume you had good books going into that.

00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:25.599
Like, did you have pretty clean and organized books going into that?

00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:26.719
And it was still 50,000.

00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:28.159
Yeah, no, I would say yes.

00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:31.039
Now my husband would go, I've done 50 deals.

00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:32.719
I mean, this is you gotta go.

00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:33.599
No.

00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:38.159
Like they're gonna want a quality, any sophisticated buyer is gonna want quality of earnings.

00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:39.280
That's super interesting.

00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:41.360
Did it turn anything up that you didn't expect?

00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:46.800
No, because I I mean I no, it just organizes it different for underwriters.

00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:55.280
You know, when somebody's giving money to do a project, they've got to figure out, especially, we have to remember a lot of these glamping sites, what's your asset?

00:45:56.800 --> 00:46:04.159
Sewage, I mean water utilities, because anything above the ground that's canvas is valued at zero.

00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:16.719
So you have to be able to say, um, you have to determine how to come up with what the value of the business is based on either earnings, because it's not usually your asset.

00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:19.599
I mean, I remember this exactly.

00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:22.000
I, you know, we had 25 sites.

00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:24.079
And Nick, you know this, you just did a project.

00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:28.639
I mean, what does your project cost to put in sewer water septic for your sites?

00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:41.360
Well, that was that was the the partner on the ground's job, but it would it was um it became significantly more expensive when they had to put in a fire suppression system, which is why Posh got involved in the first place, because they ran out of money basically.

00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:43.840
But um, I don't know the exact figure.

00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:45.199
But let's just say it's a million.

00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:46.639
That's all that that is worth.

00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:48.400
The the tents are worth nothing.

00:46:48.639 --> 00:47:00.239
So if there's nothing to if there's nothing for somebody to go get a loan against, because there's no asset to go get a loan, you have to figure out what the actual value of the business is.

00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:02.239
Cash coming in.

00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:07.920
Does that make you think differently about using Canvas base for like hardwall units?

00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:11.920
No, because I think hardwall units aren't valued very much differently either.

00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:13.760
Because what can you use them for?

00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:16.400
It's not like you can turn it into a tiny home community.

00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:22.719
Most of the time, you're most of the time, depending on how you've accounted for it, you've depreciated it pretty quickly.

00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:26.320
But I would also tell you, let's say you're treating it like a car.

00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:27.920
I bought the unit for$100,000.

00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:32.320
If this business doesn't turn out, I can take this unit and sell it to somebody for maybe$40.

00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:34.400
You know what I mean?

00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:46.159
So I think that that's where we did some hard-sided, not because we wanted to increase what the value of it was, because the we weren't charging much more for the cottages.

00:47:47.199 --> 00:48:01.599
So if a tent cost me$20,000 to put up and a cottage cost me$100,000 to put up, but the difference between the two in terms of ADR wasn't significant enough, the actual ROI on a tent is greater than the ROI on a cottage.

00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:10.400
So are you allowed to say kind of whether you the business was valued based on a multiple of revenue or profit or or based on cat rates?

00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:11.920
Like are you allowed to discuss that?

00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:29.760
I would say of all of all of the offers that we received, but and I'm just gonna use kind of forward looking because I'm in conversations, I would say every month, you know, somebody's looking at a project or looking at something either to purchase and how are we valuing?

00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:31.199
Nobody's using cap rate.

00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:33.039
Everybody's using a multiple on EBITDA.

00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:34.239
Interesting.

00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:40.639
And so did did the presumably the value of the land at least came into that as well.

00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:43.280
No, though it's just a multiple on your EBIT.

00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:44.000
Okay.

00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:46.159
I mean, those are very those are very similar.

00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:51.599
I mean, that they're very similar though, like using a using cap rate and an EBITM multiple.

00:48:51.760 --> 00:48:53.199
What's what's the differences between those?

00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:54.159
A cap rate?

00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:57.679
Yeah, what's the differences between using a cap rate and an EBIT multiple?

00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:00.400
So I'll use this as an example.

00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:30.880
In if you had a prime location, let's just say it was a$2 million location that you loved, but you were doing$400,000 on revenue, even though you might argue that you could get more money from the land and that could be part of the play, if somebody's only has purchased on a history of the multiple on Ibida, your your the value of your property is fairly low.

00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:39.679
If you spent$200,000 and you got the same amount of revenue, it it's a way better deal for for Irene.

00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:40.960
Does that make sense?

00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:46.159
Yeah, and fundamentally the buyer's looking at it from a cash flow perspective.

00:49:46.239 --> 00:49:48.800
It's how much money can I make based off the cash flow, right?

00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:51.039
And how much can I increase that?

00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:54.559
How much money I can make on cash flow?

00:49:55.599 --> 00:49:58.239
Um not cash flow.

00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:10.960
Because cash flow is different than your EVIT duh, but I would say they're looking at the cash flow to them isn't necessarily as important as your earnings.

00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:14.400
Because you're not going to be able to do that.

00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:16.639
We're getting deep in the financial speak.

00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:18.559
Yeah.

00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:20.800
Hang on, I'm I'm looking something up.

00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:28.239
Yeah, because it's because uh a cap rate is essentially valuing a business based off of a multiple of the net operating income.

00:50:29.199 --> 00:50:35.280
And the net operating income you know takes into account all uh expenses, including taxes.

00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:41.840
Um and then earnings earning EBIT does earnings before interest taxes, depreciation, and amortization.

00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:48.960
Um I think those are are almost the same, almost the same value.

00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:53.440
I think there might be like a little bit of a difference, but it's broadly speaking.

00:50:56.000 --> 00:51:02.480
And a cap rate is just a percentage as opposed to a multiple, if which kind of serves the same purpose as well.

00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:07.280
Yeah, and I think maybe it's the difference between depending maybe the who the purchaser is.

00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:12.400
You know, if you're talking to real estate, because they speak in cap rates, because they're like, oh, it's a two million dollar.

00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:14.320
See, I think that's the difference.

00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:22.159
Maybe this is how I understood it is that it's a two million dollar asset doing two hundred thousand dollars in revenue.

00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:30.719
That's the cap rate versus multiple doesn't care what the value of the asset is, they just care what the multiple is on your earnings.

00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:35.760
So because you're not, you're you could have overbuilt an asset.

00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:43.199
You could have put$10 million into an asset, and is I'm working with somebody right now that has a$20 million asset doing$400,000.

00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:46.639
It's like you're never gonna get$20 million for this project, ever.

00:51:47.039 --> 00:51:48.639
You overbuilt this project.

00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:53.599
So I think because you would argue the cap rate would be the$20 million.

00:51:54.159 --> 00:52:04.239
This is what my investment is, to the revenue divided by the revenue that I have versus multiple, which is just tell me there's a multiple out there, a standard multiple.

00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:05.679
What is your EBITDA?

00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:07.280
And that's and you know you're in this range.

00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:09.840
Now let's go play with the numbers within this range.

00:52:11.039 --> 00:52:11.519
Yes.

00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:17.519
One thing I do want to clarify is that cap rate, cap rate valuations are based off net operating income, not revenue.

00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:20.480
I thought it's based on your asset value.

00:52:21.280 --> 00:52:22.960
That's how you come up with the asset.

00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:24.719
That's how you come up with the sales price.

00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:27.440
It's the the NOI divided by the cap rate.

00:52:27.679 --> 00:52:33.599
So the cap rate is the rate of return on a property or an investment, but you have to determine what the value of the investment is.

00:52:33.679 --> 00:52:41.360
So if I bought a building for a million, you have to establish what the original investment is to figure out what the cap rate is, right?

00:52:41.920 --> 00:52:44.800
So people use the cap rate to figure out the purchase price.

00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:50.559
I mean, you can work, you can right, if you have two of the knowns in the equation, you can figure out the third, right?

00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:52.480
So you can use it in different ways.

00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:57.599
So like it, yes, it's the cap rate, it's the net operated income, and it's the property value.

00:52:57.679 --> 00:53:01.599
So if you're missing any one of those, you can figure out what that missing thing is and solve for it.

00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:02.239
Yes.

00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:02.800
Okay.

00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:04.480
Right.

00:53:05.039 --> 00:53:06.639
We move away from the technical questions.

00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:07.280
Irene.

00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:07.679
Yes.

00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:08.320
Irene.

00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:12.639
Irene, how big was the party when you uh when you signed the contract?

00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:15.119
You know, we didn't have one.

00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:15.840
No.

00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:17.280
No, and it was interesting.

00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:25.119
My husband said that's not, he goes, normally when we do a deal, both sides come to the table and you kind of like shake hands and share champagne and and do it.

00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:30.719
And it could be, again, I I wasn't expecting a party.

00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:37.679
I'm sure they, you know, I'm I'm fairly new of an acquisition for them, that whole acquisition kind of realm.

00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:41.760
Winter had, you know, when we were throat in the throes of winter.

00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:42.800
So we did it.

00:53:42.960 --> 00:53:48.239
So it was just really my husband and I kind of ting tinging, and um that was it.

00:53:48.480 --> 00:53:49.679
That's kind of what I was getting, you know.

00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:52.960
I wasn't I wasn't asking like, you know, the the party with the private equity types.

00:53:53.119 --> 00:53:58.320
I was thinking, you know, after you've done, you've gone home, the champagne was popped, presumably.

00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:00.000
Yeah, and I think it's hard.

00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:07.360
I I mean again, I'll start with everybody starts a business thinking they're gonna sell a business, right?

00:54:07.519 --> 00:54:07.920
Maybe.

00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:12.320
Or they're gonna run it in perpetuity, it's their life, it's been their family legacy.

00:54:12.559 --> 00:54:15.119
Um, it does not feel the same.

00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:17.760
It it has there's a lot of mixed feelings.

00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:18.719
And it's interesting.

00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:20.159
I talked with Sarah about that.

00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:28.719
Just she and I were just kind of sharing um those, not just those, but like I'm actually doing a trip, a couple trips with her.

00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:32.880
With her, I'm I I'm super down the rabbit hole with her business view and far.

00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:38.320
Um, but I think she's brilliant, and we just kind of were chatting about purchase.

00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:39.920
Like, what does it feel like?

00:54:41.119 --> 00:54:47.119
It is um for entrepreneurs, there's a lot of void that's created, right?

00:54:47.199 --> 00:54:57.440
Because you've your space has been filled with your business and all the thoughts and all the worries and all the things we like to complain about, but every single facet of your being is touched by your business.

00:54:57.760 --> 00:54:59.599
And in one day that changes.

00:54:59.920 --> 00:55:09.679
I also think you know that works on not just acquisitions, but any any kind of project where you're fixating on the endpoint and you think you're gonna feel amazing and set have a huge celebration when it's done.

00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:17.119
You know, we were um you know, we did a three-month-long campaign to launch our first five units at Skyridge for Posh.

00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:24.159
And um, you know, I was thinking the day we opened the booking calendar and fingers crossed it went really well, that would be it.

00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:27.360
We'd made it, gonna go mad, you know, have a great time.

00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:30.239
And by the time the day we opened, it went really well.

00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:35.599
We did, you know, about just under 300k Canadian of bookings in in uh 24 hours.

00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:36.960
Uh, and I was just exhausted.

00:55:37.039 --> 00:55:39.360
Like I didn't I didn't really want to go out partying.

00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:44.559
I was just you know, we had some champagne and that, but it it it never feels quite as you as you'd expect.

00:55:44.639 --> 00:55:56.880
And I think that's pretty common whether it's an acquisition, a smaller project, um, and you know, it's cliche, but it kind of is the when you look back, it is more the journey rather than the actual destination that I think you do look back on.

00:55:57.119 --> 00:55:58.800
Yeah, oh yeah, yes.

00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:02.320
And those that are entrepreneur, I think that that's so there's something that's different about that.

00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:09.679
There are people that are um entrepreneur who love the beginning, the middle, the start, does don't need to be closers.

00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:11.440
There's other people that are closers, right?

00:56:11.519 --> 00:56:19.760
They come in when somebody else has started something, they wrap it up in a different boat, they you know, close the deal, the project, the renovation.

00:56:19.840 --> 00:56:23.280
That you know, I think that there's different phases and each phase needs the other.

00:56:23.440 --> 00:56:32.079
It just um it just was it felt different than what I had thought it might feel in my mind, if that makes sense.

00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:32.559
Yeah.

00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:42.800
Yeah, and I think you know, having having not just in in this space, but I've listened to uh you know entrepreneurial podcasts and read entrepreneurial books since I was you know 15, 16.

00:56:42.880 --> 00:56:44.400
That's kind of why I ended up in this space.

00:56:44.559 --> 00:56:46.639
And ever every entrepreneur says the same.

00:56:46.719 --> 00:57:01.039
It never never you're chasing a feeling that you'll never actually get, um, which sounds pretty depressing, but you know, it's it's motivating, but yeah, yeah, I I just wouldn't expect, I would never expect it to feel quite as as you would as you would think it would when you reach the end point.

00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:08.719
Yeah, and there's a lot of it's like um, you know, I've I don't want to use the word grief because I think grief comes with like a whole nother level of sadness.

00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:10.559
So I think I use that word kind of like void.

00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:14.480
There's just this spot that's just a little bit quieter.

00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:18.960
Um, and and all the all the things like your team, decision makings.

00:57:19.039 --> 00:57:24.559
I mean, the other day a guest texted and was like, hey, can't tell my husband October 18th, would love to make a reservation.

00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:25.519
Can we do it over the phone?

00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:27.760
And I was like, screenshots, send it to somebody else.

00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:34.000
Like all the things that you're involved in and the growth that takes place and the learning.

00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:38.159
But I would tell you, um, I absolutely loved every single minute of running it.

00:57:38.400 --> 00:57:51.039
So while I would argue that I've had some crazy moments and I escaped death many times, um, I love that, like I thrive on that pulse in my throat feeling, you know, where you're just on the edge all the time.

00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:55.519
Just, you know, like you're putting the car together as it's going 100 miles an hour down the road.

00:57:55.920 --> 00:57:56.880
Love I thrive in the case.

00:57:57.119 --> 00:57:58.639
We've basically lived like that for the last year.

00:57:58.800 --> 00:58:00.000
I needed a break from it.

00:58:01.199 --> 00:58:11.760
But somebody like me does not work well in a system that is really defined where there's a role, and you're like, let me go ask so-and-so over the wall if we can do that, because that's their lane.

00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:13.280
I'd be like, get the fuck out of the way.

00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:14.719
We don't have time for this.

00:58:14.800 --> 00:58:15.840
It's like time is money.

00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:16.480
Let's move on.

00:58:16.639 --> 00:58:18.880
So um, there is a little bit of that.

00:58:19.199 --> 00:58:30.400
We were chatting a little bit before the show about how you gotta go boating two days in a row over the weekend, and you're like, wait a second, I haven't been able to do that since like before the fields, before being a mom.

00:58:30.559 --> 00:58:34.000
Like it's been like 20 years since I had two boat days in a row.

00:58:34.079 --> 00:58:35.039
Like, I know.

00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:37.760
How are you finding that genuinely?

00:58:38.079 --> 00:58:39.519
The the extra free time.

00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:44.639
You know, it's so interesting because I'm sitting on the precipice of opportunity.

00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:50.079
And every day my husband's like, like, where you're where's your head at?

00:58:50.159 --> 00:58:50.639
What are you thinking?

00:58:50.719 --> 00:58:51.360
What are you thinking?

00:58:51.440 --> 00:58:53.280
Like, what, like, where what do you want to do next?

00:58:53.440 --> 00:58:54.880
Like, what's your decision?

00:58:55.199 --> 00:59:01.119
And um, this past weekend was so summer has finally sprung in Michigan.

00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:03.360
Like it's been hot, you know, people are getting in the lake.

00:59:03.440 --> 00:59:05.519
It's like your typical Michigan summer.

00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:13.519
And um we had we hosted friends and we got out on the water, and I we jet skied.

00:59:13.760 --> 00:59:24.239
And I just remember like laughing and giggling, and and my husband, because he's really sweet, he was like, Oh my god, I'm having so much fun just watching you have fun.

00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:31.199
Because when you're in the business mode and you guys all know this and you've got money at risk and you've got employees, you there's this different set of seriousness that comes about you.

00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:38.559
So I would say it feels I feel like a teenager again.

00:59:38.719 --> 00:59:51.519
Like I don't feel the I don't feel the heavy weight of motherhood, which keeping children alive and healthy and getting them through high school and college, for those of you that haven't done it, um, it's the greatest, it's the hardest job I've ever had.

00:59:51.760 --> 00:59:59.199
Really, like the constant motherhood, making sure everybody's good, safe, educated, doing activities, growing, learning.

00:59:59.360 --> 01:00:02.639
Um But I went right from there back into the fields.

01:00:03.039 --> 01:00:13.119
So for me, I missed a lot of weekends, friendship nurturing, relationship nurturing, visiting with family.

01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:14.559
I mean, I got to go see my dad.

01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:20.400
I actually drove in a car for 14 hours because I had the time to do it, which I never would have been able to do and fished with him.

01:00:20.639 --> 01:00:33.760
So I've been able to do some life's simplest pleasures, which has me, I just feel so grateful to be able to be it's afforded the opportunity to be able to do that.

01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:40.320
Because I know I've I've lived a life of working two jobs and I've lived a life of working, you know, 20 hours a day.

01:00:40.480 --> 01:00:44.480
I so I do know what conversely that could look like.

01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:48.639
So to be on this side, there's this part of me that's like the entrepreneurial journey is fun.

01:00:48.800 --> 01:00:53.840
It is very costly in a lot of ways that it's very hard for people to understand if they don't do it.

01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:56.800
I'm just empathizing with those that are already in the throes of it.

01:00:56.960 --> 01:01:01.760
It felt very weird and guilty, but I loved it every minute of it.

01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:17.360
I I really don't know how you did it genuinely as a as a mother as well, because um, you know, I I you know people listening to this will know that I've you know been working hard for the last three years or so, but I've been single, no responsibilities or anything like that.

01:01:17.440 --> 01:01:19.039
And I've been able to just put everything into it.

01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:22.239
I don't know how you work around all the other important parts of your life.

01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:24.159
So, yeah, how how do you do it?

01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:34.239
Yeah, um I think what it is is that um sacrifices 90.

01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:38.639
I we say this in our house, it drives my husband crazy, but I'll say 90% is still an A.

01:01:39.039 --> 01:01:44.719
So if I can go um to work and I can execute, but I've got to tap out a little early.

01:01:44.800 --> 01:01:48.320
I didn't crush it to 100%, but I got it to 90%, it's still an A.

01:01:48.559 --> 01:02:01.760
If I my husband's like, listen, I want to do dinner, like if it's you know, Thursday night, and I know you're gonna be busy Friday, Saturday, and I'm like, okay, I can do dinner, but dinner's gonna be instead of in his mind, this unspoken expectation is dinner is at six.

01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:11.519
If I got guests situated in camp was good, but I got like I'm gonna commit to dinner at 7:30, maybe eight, but you'll have my undivided attention.

01:02:12.079 --> 01:02:20.159
So it was a lot of um therapy, like learning tools from people that have worked with entrepreneurs.

01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:25.119
So there's lots of people in our life that have expectations of us that are unspoken.

01:02:25.199 --> 01:02:28.639
So it's learning for them to be able to ask what the expectation is of you.

01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:37.440
And then the next one is is the commitment, the same commitment that you would have to a guest in deliverance, you need to provide for those that are the closest to you.

01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:41.360
So um, just lots of open channels of communication.

01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:49.119
Like I mean, I miss college move-ins, I missed prompts, I missed birthday parties.

01:02:49.360 --> 01:02:54.400
Um so there's a lot of misses, and I'm not doing it to be a martyr.

01:02:54.639 --> 01:02:59.360
I actually were my grandparents were um came, were immigrants.

01:02:59.519 --> 01:03:00.719
My mom was an immigrant.

01:03:00.960 --> 01:03:05.920
I think I grew up in a world where everybody worked to provide for their family.

01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:11.519
So I actually find a ton of pride in it, and I love watching other people do it.

01:03:11.679 --> 01:03:13.119
I say it out of empathy.

01:03:13.280 --> 01:03:16.239
Like I see you, I know how hard you're working, and I know what that commitment is.

01:03:16.400 --> 01:03:30.320
So really it's just asking those that love me and care for me, just if there's an expectation, let me let me meet that for you, but let's be reasonable and and and I'll be I'll execute in the same way I would for a guest.

01:03:30.639 --> 01:03:38.159
Would you uh like a bit more balance in your next venture, whatever it may be, or are you preparing to go straight back into the deep end?

01:03:38.559 --> 01:03:39.280
Full tilt.

01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:44.159
Yeah, so I'll start with I'm an empty nester now, like fully empty nesting.

01:03:44.320 --> 01:03:49.840
You know, I have a husband who has a career, so if ever there was a time to be able to start a business, actually, it's now.

01:03:50.320 --> 01:03:58.400
Um but I would also tell you it, there was a lot of I'm I'm debating.

01:03:58.559 --> 01:04:00.159
I love the thrill of the kill.

01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:06.480
And by the kill, I don't mean the kill of the deal, I mean the kill of execution, like being the best at whatever it is that I do.

01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:26.320
Like I love that feeling of knowing that I'm a competitor and I'm um and I could go back into this space, or I could go do a hotel, or I could be a whole owner restaurant, and I have lots of uh knives that have been my tools that are knives that have been sharpened that would allow me to play a game again.

01:04:26.800 --> 01:04:30.559
There is this other part that said, okay, what is something you like?

01:04:30.639 --> 01:04:34.000
My daughter today, she was like, Mom, if you had one superpower, what would it be?

01:04:34.239 --> 01:04:35.440
She's 25.

01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:39.519
Um, I was like, I think I'd like to learn to fly.

01:04:40.320 --> 01:04:43.360
And I was like, wait, what's stopping me from doing that?

01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:45.119
Or what's stopping me from going to law school?

01:04:45.199 --> 01:04:48.960
Or all those things that I didn't do because I was raising children or starting a business?

01:04:49.119 --> 01:04:50.559
Like, what could I revisit?

01:04:50.719 --> 01:04:54.000
So I'm being really careful about what I'm revisiting.

01:04:54.239 --> 01:05:01.440
Um, and I'm making sure I'm not doing it out of spite or wanting to get like, does that make sense?

01:05:01.519 --> 01:05:06.159
Like sometimes you make decisions and you're like, I'm gonna show you how valuable I am, I'm gonna do this out of spite.

01:05:06.239 --> 01:05:11.280
I'm really trying to say, I'm gonna do it out of a place of where do I really want to grow?

01:05:11.519 --> 01:05:12.880
Where do I really want to learn?

01:05:13.039 --> 01:05:15.440
And where do I really want to foster and nurture?

01:05:15.840 --> 01:05:19.119
And in those areas, that's where the decision will come from.

01:05:19.280 --> 01:05:22.960
So every time a decision comes up and somebody's like, hey, you want to look at this project?

01:05:23.199 --> 01:05:28.559
I'm like, do I do I just want to compete to show relevance again?

01:05:28.639 --> 01:05:35.119
Or am I doing it from a place of I actually love this idea, I love this group, I love these people, I love this project.

01:05:35.519 --> 01:05:38.079
So there's a lot of um gut checks.

01:05:38.480 --> 01:05:41.039
Are you leaning towards anything at the minute?

01:05:41.360 --> 01:05:43.599
You know, I have two that I really love.

01:05:44.639 --> 01:05:47.039
Um, but the market's unique right now.

01:05:47.360 --> 01:05:55.599
And I um the whole hospitality industry, but I'm gonna argue glamping is stressed.

01:05:56.079 --> 01:06:15.039
There's lots of um operators, there's lots of volume both in locations and sites and operators, and there's um there has to be I don't know that there's enough consumers for the volume that's in there right now.

01:06:15.280 --> 01:06:21.440
And so if everybody's fighting for the same thousand people, somebody's gonna survive and somebody's not.

01:06:21.679 --> 01:06:22.800
And who's gonna survive?

01:06:22.880 --> 01:06:25.039
It's the people with the biggest cash, who's gonna suffer?

01:06:25.119 --> 01:06:30.000
It's the people that you know leveraged everything to make a project off, you know, get off the ground.

01:06:30.239 --> 01:06:32.639
But there is this, and capital is expensive.

01:06:32.719 --> 01:06:35.840
I mean, I just was looking at if I had to finance a deal, what does it look like right now?

01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:37.360
Interest rates above 7%.

01:06:38.079 --> 01:06:41.039
And we want 25% down of the total project.

01:06:41.119 --> 01:06:43.280
And you're like, how many people can afford that?

01:06:43.599 --> 01:06:47.599
25% down of a total project and then cash flow it while it's up and running.

01:06:47.840 --> 01:06:58.880
So I think for me, because I'm conservative, because I don't want to um, you know, take on a project that I don't know that's not gonna be a home run, there is this level of caution.

01:06:58.960 --> 01:07:02.960
And there's certainly, in my view, a level of caution in this industry.

01:07:03.440 --> 01:07:08.079
I don't know, you know, when you look at the new travel trends, it's not outdoor hospitality, now it's wellness.

01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:16.639
So, how are you converting everybody that did clamping site or is in this unique stay and then catch the wave of the newest traveler in wellness?

01:07:16.800 --> 01:07:33.360
Because that's if that's all that architectural digest is talking about, and outdoor magazine is talking about, and Vogue is talking about, and you know, Condé Nast is talking about, no longer are people going to see these accommodations that we're all thriving in or we're thriving in.

01:07:33.440 --> 01:07:35.519
They're gonna start to see the latest and greatest.

01:07:35.679 --> 01:07:40.639
And so I think um we're at a precipice of pivot, in my view.

01:07:41.039 --> 01:07:55.599
And um I'm nervous for those that are levered in the old without the ability to be able to pivot to the new, which makes me have being cautious about what project I sign up for.

01:07:55.920 --> 01:07:58.239
I'm I love the the conversation of saturation.

01:07:58.320 --> 01:08:02.559
I'm glad you're here because I feel like you've you've been on that journey, particularly in your market.

01:08:02.639 --> 01:08:29.680
And I find saturation such a fascinating one because primarily when you look when you look at a market and you start the conversation about saturation, like I always look at the number of hotel rooms and you look at the number of short-term vacation rentals, and those are usually, let's just say like an Austin, you know, that might have 20,000 hotel rooms and it might have 10,000 short-term vacation rentals.

01:08:29.920 --> 01:08:36.960
And then you look at you know, real glamping properties, maybe it's 10 and each of those have 50.

01:08:37.199 --> 01:08:38.800
So maybe it's 500.

01:08:39.279 --> 01:08:43.039
Maybe it's 500 real legitimate glamping units in the Austin market.

01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:43.279
Uh-huh.

01:08:43.439 --> 01:08:53.359
So you look at that and you say, well, obviously, you know, people have described Austin being being saturated, but like how do you how do you come at it from a quantitative standpoint?

01:08:53.520 --> 01:08:56.960
And then you also look at those offerings, and a lot of them are super different.

01:08:57.119 --> 01:08:58.880
Well, maybe there's a lot of tented stuff there.

01:08:59.039 --> 01:09:15.199
But like, you know, I was I was just at Yofsemane, it's like, all right, we have you know an autocamp, which is going to be airstreams, and then we have an under canvas, which is canvas, and then we have um uh these uh mu modern cabins and these and like a getaway, right?

01:09:15.359 --> 01:09:22.560
Like, do though are they all having a different enough offering where it's like, hey, there might be 500 glamping units in this market, but there's only one player who's offering airstreams.

01:09:22.800 --> 01:09:26.159
So like is that market saturated for airstreams or is it saturated for glamping?

01:09:26.319 --> 01:09:27.840
Like, I don't know, how do you think about that?

01:09:28.239 --> 01:09:38.960
So, and I'll say how we look at it now, because we're starting to look at projects like what is a roll-up of could we take some of these independents and roll them up and call and put a product on it and call it something?

01:09:39.279 --> 01:09:42.079
Can we just roll them up and call it under a brand?

01:09:42.319 --> 01:09:48.239
Like, you know, we'll use that as an example, and you get the you get the benefit of synergies.

01:09:48.880 --> 01:10:01.199
And I would tell you when we're doing the comparables and we're doing data, and we're doing those data with, and again, it's different when it's Irene's money versus when it's somebody else's money.

01:10:01.359 --> 01:10:05.039
When it's somebody else's money, they're looking at them all the same.

01:10:05.359 --> 01:10:12.479
Unique stays, glamping, um, they're comparing it to STR data, they're comparing it to hotel data.

01:10:12.640 --> 01:10:20.159
I mean, they're pulling all of those data points to come up with a simple set of data that they can use to kind of go, is this a market we want to be in?

01:10:20.239 --> 01:10:24.560
And do we feel like we have a strong enough marketing pool that we can pull the lion's share?

01:10:24.640 --> 01:10:30.960
And then those that will fall beneath the line will be we'll call mom and pa, but independent owners.

01:10:31.359 --> 01:10:45.840
It is known widely that national brands outperform mom and pa's by like I the like the latest statistic was 25%, but I would argue that that number is probably even higher just simply because they have more market share in terms of marketing.

01:10:45.920 --> 01:10:56.640
They're just able to go and they have brand affiliation, which makes somebody who's normally stays with a Hyatt or a Hilton or a Marriott look under the portfolio and go, I can use my points here, I'm just gonna do that.

01:10:56.720 --> 01:10:56.960
Right.

01:10:57.039 --> 01:11:02.399
So they get double the whammy that somebody like Irene would get if I was going to market.

01:11:02.880 --> 01:11:10.880
But I would tell you, especially now with AutoCamp adding in cabins and tents, they're the same as under Canvas.

01:11:11.039 --> 01:11:16.960
And under Canvas adding in cabins, whether it's through the fields or someplace else, the same as autocamp.

01:11:17.359 --> 01:11:23.039
And so really what you're doing is as brands, you're defining who is my consumer and how can I have them have brand loyalty.

01:11:23.119 --> 01:11:32.319
So when they come and stay at an auto camp, they're staying at the auto camp at all the locations, and I'm outperforming them moving from autocamp to under campus.

01:11:32.479 --> 01:11:37.680
And similarly with under campus, how can I keep them brand loyal to under campus and not hopping over to autocamp?

01:11:37.840 --> 01:11:40.159
Because once you lose them, you likely lose them.

01:11:43.119 --> 01:11:59.520
So when I say a market is saturated, I'm saying that the demand for the experience, even if it is um that there isn't enough demand for the amount of units for that experience.

01:11:59.920 --> 01:12:07.279
Let's let's just say for your perspective, you know, Irene Wood's thinking about investing and building a project or buying a project in a market.

01:12:07.760 --> 01:12:13.039
How do you how do you decide if something is saturated or you know there's still appetite?

01:12:13.359 --> 01:12:18.319
I would look at so how I go about kind of determining whether or not a market is hot or not.

01:12:18.560 --> 01:12:18.880
Yeah.

01:12:19.119 --> 01:12:21.359
I I look at underserved markets.

01:12:21.760 --> 01:12:24.000
So I wouldn't go to a market that already had something there.

01:12:24.079 --> 01:12:34.720
I would go to underserved markets where naturally people are either traveling to because they naturally travel to, or because it's becoming the new destination that they don't know.

01:12:34.880 --> 01:12:37.119
So right now, Lake George is really hot.

01:12:37.279 --> 01:12:44.159
You can see a lot of the travel press is like Lake George is out, that lake is outperforming like the Great Lakes of Michigan.

01:12:44.319 --> 01:12:50.800
So because people say that, they're going to have an influx of people going, all right, I'm gonna invest, I'm gonna put some accommodations in there to meet the demand.

01:12:50.880 --> 01:12:57.039
And if you got a five-year runway on somebody else, at least you made your return on investment and some cash along the way.

01:12:57.199 --> 01:13:03.279
Um, but I would have a hard time tapping into any market that already had national brands in it.

01:13:03.359 --> 01:13:04.479
I'd stay away from them.

01:13:04.560 --> 01:13:08.960
Or I would steer away from areas where when I look on the website, they're not sold out.

01:13:09.039 --> 01:13:19.199
Because I'm like, if somebody could choose, and I'll use Texas Hill Country, I like to pick on them a little bit, um, you know, it's 120 degrees and they can choose to stay in a tent or they can choose to stay in an Airbnb.

01:13:20.319 --> 01:13:26.800
I even if they wanted that experience, they're conscientious consumers, they're like, I'm gonna go where the creature comforts actually are.

01:13:27.119 --> 01:13:31.600
It's kind of funny because when we were, you know, we've been doing feasibility studies for basically four years now.

01:13:31.840 --> 01:13:50.079
And you know, 2022, you do a feasibility study for, you know, Austin or Zion or um, you know, any of these big or Yosemite, you know, those you could say those were great home run markets, and then someone goes into those markets, and then two years later, you know, right?

01:13:50.159 --> 01:13:53.199
It takes it's gonna take you at least two years to develop, almost certainly.

01:13:53.359 --> 01:14:00.239
By the time you find a property and build it and get it open, that's almost always gonna be two years, probably longer.

01:14:00.479 --> 01:14:15.039
Um you know, and then as we've seen, and maybe it's more pronounced because of COVID and how crazy that was and what that did, but you know, it's almost like by the time, you know, if you're finding the market that's not saturated, by the time you build and get open, then oh, maybe it's too late.

01:14:15.119 --> 01:14:16.960
Like, how does one navigate that?

01:14:17.279 --> 01:14:20.159
Yeah, I don't know that you do, and I think that that's being wise.

01:14:20.399 --> 01:14:31.279
So I'll argue that the way that you can compile information is there's information you could get through Connor.

01:14:31.520 --> 01:14:36.000
Then there's other information that Connor's not maybe you are digging through, but you're not digging through.

01:14:36.159 --> 01:14:41.199
So let's just say, for instance, I wanted to build in South Haven, Michigan.

01:14:41.760 --> 01:14:47.359
You know, I would go to the planning commission and I would go, how many people have pulled permits for this area?

01:14:47.520 --> 01:14:51.279
Maybe they haven't built yet, but they're thinking of building.

01:14:51.439 --> 01:14:54.640
And they'd go, we've got four permits in there, but we have no building permits yet.

01:14:54.720 --> 01:15:00.800
So I'm like, all right, I've got four people who think they want to do this business, haven't pulled building permits yet.

01:15:01.279 --> 01:15:02.560
Where's their location?

01:15:02.800 --> 01:15:04.800
Is it a better location than mine is?

01:15:04.960 --> 01:15:06.479
Is it closer to traffic?

01:15:06.640 --> 01:15:08.640
Will somebody see that before they see mine?

01:15:08.800 --> 01:15:11.600
How could I differentiate based on their location?

01:15:11.840 --> 01:15:43.680
So I think that there's other layers of diligence that I think um sometimes get missed when you're doing you're doing a feasibility study that isn't so micro-specific, where I think somebody who lives in an area can really understand an area and dive deep into both what is coming down the pipeline, what has already been approved, so that you don't find yourself buying a piece of property, building next to somebody who's two years ahead of you.

01:15:43.920 --> 01:15:47.520
That is that is super important, and that is something that that we look at as well.

01:15:47.600 --> 01:15:56.640
But yeah, for any of the listeners, like call your city planning, county planning, adjacent counties, adjacent cities um to find out what's what's coming online.

01:15:56.960 --> 01:16:02.720
And yeah, that that is the best way to look into the future and say, hey, what might be coming online in the next two years?

01:16:03.039 --> 01:16:14.399
Yeah, because if you had, I mean, we opened um in 2018 and then off map opened, I think 2019, just up the road, and then getaway and then auto camp.

01:16:14.479 --> 01:16:15.840
So there's a been a lot of it.

01:16:16.000 --> 01:16:24.239
I think had I known, I it didn't matter because I was first, but had I shown up to the party this year and I looked around and I went, hey, listen, am I gonna do this?

01:16:24.479 --> 01:16:26.239
Like, no, and there's seven more in the queue.

01:16:26.319 --> 01:16:27.439
There's no way I'm gonna build.

01:16:27.600 --> 01:16:32.640
There's gonna be more tent sites than there are people that want to do this experience.

01:16:32.800 --> 01:16:34.560
I'm gonna go find something else to do.

01:16:34.720 --> 01:16:37.600
And really being honest, I think, and Connor, you know this too.

01:16:37.680 --> 01:16:47.840
You guys have sat in situations where somebody's like, I really want to do this, and you're and the and the desire and the passion is greater than the common sense for the project.

01:16:48.239 --> 01:17:01.359
And then you keep throwing money at it and money at it and money at it, which just creates a different problem, a different day, and and things get affected, like quality of life, um, your relationship with your family, because you borrowed money that you can't pay back.

01:17:01.439 --> 01:17:03.039
So those are some other things too.

01:17:03.279 --> 01:17:03.760
Mm-hmm.

01:17:04.000 --> 01:17:04.319
Yeah.

01:17:04.479 --> 01:17:04.800
Yeah.

01:17:04.960 --> 01:17:07.840
You can get into hot water really easily.

01:17:08.159 --> 01:17:08.399
Yeah.

01:17:08.640 --> 01:17:34.960
Is there a scenario where someone could say, hey, like, you know, I'm gonna go into a market that is saturated, but you know, I'm just confident that we're gonna execute or invest, and you know, like the Austin market isn't going anywhere, the Yosemite market isn't going anywhere, and like, you know, it might go through ups and downs, but like we're gonna be different and we're gonna execute so it's all gonna work out, or is that still ill-advised?

01:17:35.520 --> 01:17:42.720
So I always say, and I've had to really adjust my demonstrative feeling about this.

01:17:43.600 --> 01:17:50.000
I have a very um different threshold of pain.

01:17:51.119 --> 01:17:55.520
And I also have this mindset if I'm not making this much money, I don't do that.

01:17:55.600 --> 01:17:57.119
I'll I won't do that project.

01:17:57.279 --> 01:18:01.680
And I forget that there are some people that are um, we just did this master class.

01:18:01.920 --> 01:18:03.840
I'm gonna mention it like 65 times.

01:18:04.159 --> 01:18:08.079
But in this class, we had a wide range of people making different kinds of money.

01:18:08.239 --> 01:18:16.239
So people like on hip camp who've been operating and maybe they have four sites to people that have, you know, large 75-site locations.

01:18:16.800 --> 01:18:26.720
And the person on four sites, if you just did math really quick in your head, you can come up with roughly what you think their season of 110 days look like at$400 a night at 60% occupancy.

01:18:26.880 --> 01:18:29.039
Well, for me, that's like not feasible.

01:18:29.199 --> 01:18:35.680
That's not financially, that isn't a feasible project for me, but for somebody that might be augmenting a lifestyle for them.

01:18:36.000 --> 01:18:44.640
So I think when, or on the other end of a spectrum, you could have a$20 million build-out asset not doing enough revenue.

01:18:44.880 --> 01:18:52.079
You may not care because that could be a fun project for you, and you've always wanted to have a camp and your friends use it when guests aren't there.

01:18:52.239 --> 01:18:57.039
So there's a wide range of performance thresholds.

01:18:57.359 --> 01:19:05.039
And so I always say it's hard for me to push my own thresholds on other people because they're thresholds maybe a little differently.

01:19:05.359 --> 01:19:31.600
But when we talk about markets like Austin, um, which I feel like I have a pretty strong understanding of that market, when you're looking at the performance of those that are in a two-hour radius of it, if 80%, 70, 60% aren't crushing it, what gives you the thought that you're going to be not in the general population?

01:19:32.000 --> 01:19:35.840
Unless you have crushed a brand and people are begging you to come.

01:19:35.920 --> 01:19:40.880
It's like, how did um in Waco, Texas, you know, Chip and Joanna Gaines?

01:19:41.039 --> 01:19:45.439
They made Waco, Texas on the map again because they had such a strong brand that they could throw the brand there.

01:19:45.600 --> 01:19:49.359
If you have a strong brand, you can probably put your brand in a parking lot and people will show up.

01:19:49.600 --> 01:19:53.439
Boldhouse shows up, parking lot, Detroit, sold out.

01:19:53.680 --> 01:19:58.000
I don't know that if an average person who hasn't developed a brand could do that.

01:19:58.800 --> 01:20:04.000
Yeah, well, I I try to tell people like that is the kind of just like you said, like that is the tried and true way.

01:20:04.079 --> 01:20:10.079
Like if you're not sure whether to go into market, go into the top five players and be like how drive there, how full are they?

01:20:10.159 --> 01:20:11.680
You know, and what rates are they charging?

01:20:11.760 --> 01:20:24.560
Like that, that is the bet there's a lot of different things you can do about population growth and you know, property uh prices and traffic counts and you know, um median household income and seasonality and national park visitation.

01:20:24.640 --> 01:20:25.359
You can do all that.

01:20:25.439 --> 01:20:34.079
But like if your competitors are having really low occupancy andor really low rates, like you know, that's that's kind of the the best indicator for you.

01:20:34.319 --> 01:20:34.640
Yeah.

01:20:34.880 --> 01:20:36.800
I mean, and is the project feasible?

01:20:37.039 --> 01:20:40.079
Like you may argue I can come with, yeah, the project is feasible.

01:20:40.159 --> 01:20:45.520
I mean, you can catch some of the market share at what price point, at what occupancy, with what capital.

01:20:45.840 --> 01:20:47.760
That's that's feasibility as a spectrum.

01:20:48.000 --> 01:20:48.880
Yeah, yeah.

01:20:49.119 --> 01:20:49.600
Yeah.

01:20:50.720 --> 01:20:52.720
Well, um, I've got a question for you.

01:20:52.800 --> 01:20:56.640
I'm I'm actually working on a study right now that has that wants to do fine dining.

01:20:56.800 --> 01:21:01.119
I know that was a really big I know that was a really big um piece for you.

01:21:01.199 --> 01:21:03.920
And we've had a couple big projects lately that want to do F and B.

01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:21.920
And one of the numbers I always struggle with or just don't have a grounding in is like what percentage of guests do you rely on that are gonna purchase like a fine dining, you know, on your property or like, and then for I guess maybe could you tell us a little bit about what the setup was like at the fields and yeah, what what your experience was?

01:21:22.239 --> 01:21:24.960
So um I love to talk about this, Connor.

01:21:25.039 --> 01:21:33.199
And the reason I like to talk about it is because if somebody's really passionate about adding this to their portfolio of revenue, some things to consider.

01:21:33.920 --> 01:21:40.640
So a couple things that we talked about was weather, you know, like can the weather support fine dining?

01:21:40.800 --> 01:21:43.920
You know, outstanding in the field does it, and outstanding is a really great example.

01:21:44.000 --> 01:21:48.319
I mean, I think I I think the tickets are$375 for one ticket.

01:21:48.880 --> 01:21:56.159
So I think some of it is when we did the feasibility for it for the fields, what we said was is there a demand for restaurants in the area?

01:21:56.319 --> 01:22:00.800
Or are rest backs in its occupancy, or are restaurants full and there's really not a demand?

01:22:00.960 --> 01:22:14.560
And what we were finding is actually in our area, the amount of dining was being constrained, restaurants were getting pulled out, restaurants are hard to staff, and especially hard to staff in a seasonal area because you have employees that want to be employed all year round.

01:22:14.880 --> 01:22:21.119
So we felt like we actually had to offer dining because we were offering such a high ticket price.

01:22:21.199 --> 01:22:24.800
How can we have food that mirrors what the experience is?

01:22:24.960 --> 01:22:27.600
We can't send them to town and get Wendy's.

01:22:27.760 --> 01:22:32.000
Like then we can't get the dollar amount that we want for the overnight stay.

01:22:32.239 --> 01:22:39.600
So for us, um, once we realized that the demand, people were waiting, you know, hour, two hours to go eat in town.

01:22:39.760 --> 01:22:44.399
They were driving 30 minutes to the next town where there were not enough restaurants to support the number of guests.

01:22:44.479 --> 01:22:50.239
We said this is gonna be really easy for us to fill the amount of seats that we need to fill in order to support it.

01:22:50.479 --> 01:22:54.800
So the way that we came up with the number of seats was how many guests do we have on site?

01:22:55.039 --> 01:22:58.640
Can we build a business plan just around the number of guests that we have when we're sold out?

01:22:58.800 --> 01:23:02.159
If we can build it around that, then what we'll do is we'll offer to guests first.

01:23:02.319 --> 01:23:14.159
If guests don't take it, then we'll offer it to outside people who'd be willing to pay to have that experience on site so that we could level and plan our restaurant around 40.

01:23:14.399 --> 01:23:16.640
And for us, it was 40, 40 people.

01:23:17.119 --> 01:23:23.840
And so um that makes staffing easier because you're you always know you're never gonna have more than that.

01:23:24.000 --> 01:23:26.479
We had them pre-booked, so we they were already paid for it.

01:23:26.560 --> 01:23:28.159
So if they didn't show up, it didn't matter.

01:23:28.399 --> 01:23:37.600
And then what we did was we um we had we didn't want refrigeration, freezer refrigeration for 200.

01:23:38.319 --> 01:23:41.199
When some nights we would have 20, and some nights you would have 60.

01:23:41.279 --> 01:23:49.760
So I think for us, we just said, let's build this business around the number of guests that we have and let's just try to sell this experience to the guests and we'll take care of them first.

01:23:49.840 --> 01:24:01.840
In the case that we have some openings because occupancy is lower, or just for some reason somebody isn't experiencing it, it will open up to the general public, and then all we have to do is fill these shorter, like two people, four people, six people.

01:24:02.560 --> 01:24:03.520
Is it set menu?

01:24:03.680 --> 01:24:05.119
They just paid ahead set menu.

01:24:05.359 --> 01:24:05.520
Yep.

01:24:05.760 --> 01:24:08.560
What was like a price per head and we're 75 bucks?

01:24:08.960 --> 01:24:10.239
75 bucks per head.

01:24:10.399 --> 01:24:15.439
Yeah, yeah, and it was at the same time, so everybody dined at the same time and it was coursed out.

01:24:15.680 --> 01:24:18.960
Um, and then 75 was not inclusive of beverages.

01:24:19.279 --> 01:24:33.600
So, and we felt like that was the I could move that lever easier than having more accommodations um once we got our liquor license, which we got like October 24th of 2024.

01:24:34.720 --> 01:24:43.920
I was like, oh, I mean, this is like when you can make cocktails and really have a bar program and now open up to the general public so you can get all that additional revenue.

01:24:45.119 --> 01:24:48.640
And how how how significant of a part of the business was it financially?

01:24:48.880 --> 01:24:52.560
I think it was um, I can quantify it.

01:24:52.640 --> 01:24:55.920
It was I would 20 to 25 percent of the business.

01:24:56.239 --> 01:24:59.359
Did it require 20 to 25 percent of the work, more or less?

01:24:59.600 --> 01:25:01.760
No, because we were already doing breakfast for guests.

01:25:01.920 --> 01:25:07.279
So if you already have the staff and you were doing breakfast for it, now you're just doing dinner and charging for it.

01:25:07.359 --> 01:25:12.800
And the margins were you can charge a high higher margin on food in a unique setting.

01:25:13.119 --> 01:25:15.039
Outstanding the field's an example.

01:25:15.199 --> 01:25:21.680
Um, if you have something unique and beautiful for them to look at, because I do think that people are empathetic to what a lift that is.

01:25:21.840 --> 01:25:28.800
And you have, and for us, we have a high touch staff, you had underutilized staff, especially at dinner time when all the guests are captive.

01:25:29.039 --> 01:25:33.119
So it's not like they're taking care of things uh elsewhere in camp.

01:25:33.279 --> 01:25:37.520
You're just redirectionalizing the work and the staff during that condensed period of time.

01:25:37.680 --> 01:25:44.560
So it wasn't like we had a staff, you know, um a ton more for that experience.

01:25:44.800 --> 01:25:50.319
Did you analyze to see like the profit margin of the F and B relative to accommodation?

01:25:50.479 --> 01:25:56.960
I mean, we we always kind of joke that F and B is usually the the L on a PL and that it's it's hard to turn to profit.

01:25:57.199 --> 01:26:00.960
Oh no, our we we we made a ton of money on food, beverage, tons.

01:26:01.439 --> 01:26:04.479
I mean, I I would say that that's if I not that rooms weren't.

01:26:04.560 --> 01:26:08.479
I don't rooms make money, but there's a lot of cost in rooms, right?

01:26:09.279 --> 01:26:22.319
There's and I'm not arguing that you're not gonna burden it all with your insurance and your uh licensing and permitting and housekeeping and heat and electricity and all those other items, but that's sunk cost.

01:26:23.039 --> 01:26:26.560
So you're gonna pay that whether or not somebody dines with you or they don't.

01:26:26.800 --> 01:26:30.319
The incremental expense for dining was the cost of food.

01:26:30.399 --> 01:26:35.279
And you know, if you have a smart chef, they're playing the market just like you would a stock market.

01:26:35.359 --> 01:26:41.439
They're buying food when pork is lower or chicken is lower or fish is lower.

01:26:41.520 --> 01:26:45.279
They don't have a set menu to be able to control some of the pricing for you.

01:26:45.600 --> 01:26:55.359
And they're also staffing in a way that you're utilizing staff that is underutilized on your camp that's just naturally sitting there waiting for a guest to come back from something.

01:26:55.920 --> 01:27:01.359
And they're um, you know, you're able to just upsell and it's a captive audience.

01:27:01.520 --> 01:27:05.680
So they're going to buy whatever you give them because they're already sitting on site.

01:27:05.840 --> 01:27:14.560
And if they're not gonna buy it, somebody who's in the area who doesn't want to wait two hours for a dinner and goes into open table and sees that they can get dinner on your site is going to choose it.

01:27:15.359 --> 01:27:16.079
I love it.

01:27:16.319 --> 01:27:16.800
I love it.

01:27:17.039 --> 01:27:18.800
Executed so beautifully.

01:27:18.960 --> 01:27:21.039
Um always impressive.

01:27:21.840 --> 01:27:28.479
I I guess we kind of chatted about this a little bit, but so you're you mentioned you're on the precipice of opportunity.

01:27:28.640 --> 01:27:40.159
I think now that you've got one successful, uh, you know, growing, scaling a business and an exit, you're so much more dangerous, you know, as an operator, as an entrepreneur, as an advisor, um, which is really exciting.

01:27:40.319 --> 01:27:43.279
But do you any other clarity or color on like what's next?

01:27:43.359 --> 01:27:45.119
And do you have any asks of the audience?

01:27:45.439 --> 01:27:50.319
Yeah, you know, I um what's next is, I mean, I can't, I'll just say this.

01:27:50.399 --> 01:27:52.960
I can't imagine working for somebody.

01:27:53.600 --> 01:28:03.600
I can imagine partnering with somebody, but really working for somebody when I know tough decisions need to be made for the benefit of a project.

01:28:03.760 --> 01:28:04.880
A lot of people don't love that.

01:28:04.960 --> 01:28:08.159
They don't like the conflict, they don't like the pushback.

01:28:08.479 --> 01:28:16.399
So I would say anything that I would do, I would command, which sounds like lead, organize.

01:28:16.880 --> 01:28:29.840
Um, but I think the other thing too is I want something that feels larger and at scale, you know, where you're you're managing running one site, frankly, even two, would be like shooting fish in a barrel.

01:28:30.000 --> 01:28:31.279
Almost frankly, too easy.

01:28:31.359 --> 01:28:32.720
I wouldn't feel challenged.

01:28:32.880 --> 01:28:37.279
So it would have to be something that was like multi-site with lots of different challenges.

01:28:37.439 --> 01:28:45.199
I love regulation challenges, I love neighbor challenges, community challenges, I love um animal challenges, staffing challenges.

01:28:45.279 --> 01:28:46.159
Like I like that.

01:28:46.319 --> 01:28:58.479
I like to take that because I think um I'm really good at being a team lead and having team members um follow direction and get along on the strategy.

01:28:58.560 --> 01:29:02.479
I'm a I I can take a strategy and execute it very well.

01:29:03.199 --> 01:29:29.119
Um but there's also this part that has, you know, like I told you, I just wrapped up a six-week masterclass with Ruben where we went through with operators to kind of help tweak their business so we could see measurable improvements in their business, whether it was through occupancy, ADR, really those two main ones, but cost, you know, I mean, I customer satisfaction, guest satisfaction, those sorts of things.

01:29:29.199 --> 01:29:30.960
But so I don't know.

01:29:31.039 --> 01:29:36.239
I'm I'm hoping that a unicorn shows up and lands in my lap, and I'm like, and that's it.

01:29:36.399 --> 01:29:38.720
That's the one I'm gonna get my head wrapped around.

01:29:38.960 --> 01:29:46.560
Um, because I believe in that one so much, or I love the team that's putting that together, and they just need an operator to kind of help round out the team.

01:29:46.880 --> 01:29:53.279
Because there is this unique part that I'm learning is that there's a lot of people that run businesses.

01:29:54.079 --> 01:29:58.720
There's not a lot of operators that run their business, right?

01:29:58.800 --> 01:29:59.760
They're when we talk.

01:30:00.159 --> 01:30:12.640
About hotels, you know, there's property owners, opcos, they come in, but they don't own it in a way that has their money at risk, their family at risk, like all the things that just make it a little bit more juicy.

01:30:12.880 --> 01:30:15.680
So I like that part.

01:30:16.079 --> 01:30:18.560
But I just want to do it at scale, like large.

01:30:18.960 --> 01:30:22.399
So maybe a roll-up, you know, finding some.

01:30:22.479 --> 01:30:30.399
So I guess maybe if there's some independent operators out there that are like, you know what, I've reached kind of the end of my season, I'm tired.

01:30:31.279 --> 01:30:46.640
Um I could I could see myself taking 10 or 15 and rolling them up under a brand and then kind of pushing the brand out in a way that's uniform and symbiotic and speaks to you know people.

01:30:47.039 --> 01:30:51.920
Um, or if there was a team that was like, hey, listen, we should take this over.

01:30:52.159 --> 01:30:54.239
We didn't think this this wasn't as much fun as we thought.

01:30:54.319 --> 01:30:55.600
I think I could do that too.

01:30:56.239 --> 01:31:02.479
Well, if there are any unicorns listening, um, how do they get in touch?

01:31:03.600 --> 01:31:05.520
Um, well, I always say this.

01:31:05.760 --> 01:31:08.720
I share my phone number, my email address.

01:31:08.960 --> 01:31:16.479
Um, but really the best way, and I I like to push this, is that all of my contact information is on the American Glamping Association.

01:31:16.640 --> 01:31:21.039
So I I owe a lot of credit to the association and the connections and contacts that I've made.

01:31:21.119 --> 01:31:22.159
It's such a community.

01:31:22.399 --> 01:31:23.119
Really, it is.

01:31:23.359 --> 01:31:34.319
There's like Ruben at the helm, and I think lots of organizations take on the character of its leader.

01:31:34.560 --> 01:31:38.800
And Ruben is just such a great advocate for the space.

01:31:39.039 --> 01:31:44.079
So anytime I can say, go to EGA and you can find me there.

01:31:44.319 --> 01:31:48.720
Cause then you can just click on the link, and at least Ruben thinks that I'm doing my work for him.

01:31:48.880 --> 01:31:52.399
So we will uh the glamping godfather.

01:31:53.039 --> 01:31:55.359
I know he is, he is, he's so great.

01:31:55.680 --> 01:32:00.720
We will uh we'll include a link to the AGA uh in the description of this episode, so go ahead and check it out.

01:32:00.880 --> 01:32:05.439
Irene, it's always a pleasure, always, and always very valuable.

01:32:05.760 --> 01:32:15.039
Oh, well, listen, I don't know if it's valuable, but I'm happy to just chat through my own kind of interpretations of the space, experience, all that stuff.

01:32:15.439 --> 01:32:19.359
I uh it's such so such a pleasure and privilege having you on.

01:32:19.520 --> 01:32:25.199
You're just the goat, and I'm I'm so pumped that you got acquired, and hopefully uh we could celebrate in in person sometime.

01:32:25.279 --> 01:32:26.079
I'm super happy for it.

01:32:26.399 --> 01:32:28.079
Are you guys gonna be at the glamping show this year?

01:32:28.239 --> 01:32:28.800
Oh, yeah.

01:32:28.960 --> 01:32:29.359
Yeah.

01:32:29.600 --> 01:32:29.840
Yeah.

01:32:30.000 --> 01:32:31.439
So we'll have to celebrate.

01:32:31.520 --> 01:32:33.600
I think Ruben and I were just talking today.

01:32:33.680 --> 01:32:42.239
We're gonna have a reunion for our master class, but I was like, you know, we probably there is some of us that are, I'm not gonna use the word that are OGs, but there's just some in the space that have been around and are doing stuff.

01:32:42.560 --> 01:32:43.600
OGs for sure in the space.

01:32:44.000 --> 01:32:44.399
We could say that.

01:32:44.560 --> 01:32:58.239
I just think, yeah, we just need like a little OG reunion or an opportunity to maybe the word is suffer together or just explore the space, you know, because we're all still in the space, and it's hard to leave it when you're passionate about it from a multitude of angles.

01:32:59.680 --> 01:33:00.239
Yeah.

01:33:00.479 --> 01:33:03.279
Oh well, man, thank you so much.

01:33:03.439 --> 01:33:06.159
I'm enjoy your summer with with all your free time.

01:33:06.239 --> 01:33:08.479
And I can't wait to hear what I do with myself.

01:33:08.800 --> 01:33:16.560
I I can't wait to hear uh what kind of projects you get uh you jump into in the next you know few months or few years.

01:33:16.800 --> 01:33:17.199
Yeah.

01:33:17.439 --> 01:33:20.000
Well, I mean it'll unfold as it should.

01:33:20.079 --> 01:33:21.199
Just trying to be really patient.

01:33:21.279 --> 01:33:29.840
It's hard not, it's hard to, and and you guys all know this when you own your own business and you're moving at breakneck speed to like slam on the brakes and be done.

01:33:30.079 --> 01:33:32.720
That your body, there's so much inertia still going forward.

01:33:32.800 --> 01:33:34.000
So, how do we put it to work?

01:33:34.159 --> 01:33:37.520
So, should you guys need anything, as always, just reach out.

01:33:37.600 --> 01:33:39.520
I'm happy to help in any way.

01:33:39.920 --> 01:33:40.399
Thank you.

01:33:40.479 --> 01:33:43.199
Well, we would say best of luck, but we all know you won't need it.

01:33:43.359 --> 01:33:46.720
So it would just say thank you again for your time and your contribution.

01:33:47.199 --> 01:33:48.640
We we we hugely appreciate it.

01:33:48.880 --> 01:33:49.359
You got it.

01:33:49.520 --> 01:33:50.800
Anytime, guys.